In need of church without brick and mortar

[Sam]

Well, we have our American way of "doing church" and it is drawn from our Roman Catholic heritage. We have carried on the division of clergy and laity; church buildings; a favored clergy class; control of the laity by clergy; the idea that the church saves and we have to stay in the good graces of the church to stay saved; etc.

It's not perfect and it certainly has been abused by some but it's our way of "doing church."

Jesus had some disciples gathered around Him and He referred to them as His church. A few months before His death He said that He would build up/edify His Church (Matthew 16:18) upon the Rock (which I understand to be Jesus Christ). Later He mentioned His church again in Matthew 18:15-18 He gave a few more insights on His Church. It is spoken of as people, and at least 2 or 3 gathered in His name with the promise that He would be in their midst. He quoted a rabbinic saying, "If two sit together and words of Torah pass between them, the Shekhinah abides between them."

From the simple concept of two or more gathered in His name we humans have developed a system of organization with paid staff and buildings and programs.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by CC1

Sorry but I am not one of the malcontents of this age who see bad things every time they look at brick and mortar churches.

I have news for you - anytime human beings are involved in something it is not going to be perfect. Including those of you who think you are doing something superior by leading your own little "house church". You will find the imperfections of human beings will rear its ugly head there also. Just not as often as a tiny group has fewer of those imperfect humans to make things not wonderful.

Of course there are bad churches but you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

Now that will preach!!!!!

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, we have our American way of "doing church" and it is drawn from our Roman Catholic heritage. We have carried on the division of clergy and laity; church buildings; a favored clergy class; control of the laity by clergy; the idea that the church saves and we have to stay in the good graces of the church to stay saved; etc.

It's not perfect and it certainly has been abused by some but it's our way of "doing church."

Jesus had some disciples gathered around Him and He referred to them as His church. A few months before His death He said that He would build up/edify His Church (Matthew 16:18) upon the Rock (which I understand to be Jesus Christ). Later He mentioned His church again in Matthew 18:15-18 He gave a few more insights on His Church. It is spoken of as people, and at least 2 or 3 gathered in His name with the promise that He would be in their midst. He quoted a rabbinic saying, "If two sit together and words of Torah pass between them, the Shekhinah abides between them."

From the simple concept of two or more gathered in His name we humans have developed a system of organization with paid staff and buildings and programs.

While the NT does not show this huge clergy/laity separation, there is most certainly a distinction in roles among the community.

The issue of 2 or 3 being gathered was simply a manner of settling disputes, and doing so with the sophia of the Spirit as a witness.

[shag]

The more thats added to the "original", the more nonsense that is required from those that are a part of it. Platform standards, dress code standards, financial standards, amount of times per week to be there standards, on and on, and if you dont heed to the man made requirements, generally you will catch some nonsense about coming up short. One doesnt have to deal with all that nonsense in a house church.

And...the church is the people not a building, tho one NEVER heres it that way tho. Instead, its "Thats a beautiful church" while driving by, or 99 out of 100 times the word is used as referring to the building.

Where I generslly attend, the first 1 hour Im there I usually here ALL about the house of God (THE BUILDING) "HOW DAVID SAID "i WAS GLAD WHEN THEY DSAID UNTO ME, LET US GO INTO THE HOUSE OF THE LORD", or "How many are thankful they made it to the house of God!", or "Id rather be a door keeper in the house of the Lord than to dwell in the tents of the wicked", or "Better is one day in his courts than a thousand elsewhere" and ALL of them referring to being at that building. There is even a calender on the wall to sign your name on to work at the so called house of God one day thruout the year, and at the top of the calender it says "Better is one day in his courts!

Now its great to pitch in together and work at or clean the building, but it isnt the house of God as that temple got destryoed 2000 years ago, and now we are that temple and house for God to dwell. Even Steven got stoned to death in part, for pushing the fact that God no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

I attended a house church for the first time 3 weeks ago, and Im looking forward to attending again. Sure it can have its share of problems, but in my opinion its better and closer to the original, and will genersally have less problems because of that reason. There has to be elders that oversee, no doubt, according to scripture. But its a LOT more simplistic and personal, and without all the burdensome requirements. I do think its cool/fun to get to gether every now and then with a bigger crowd tho.

Each to his own tho I guess.

[The Lemon]

It's interesting reading all the posts so far. Seems to me that in most respects there are two camps - the traditional building camp, and the house church camp. In my opinion both have there merits, they both have pros and cons, as does everything in life. As I said before, I personally do not have a big issue with a building, but when the trappings and payments and programs become a source of burnout and frustration and fleecing, it has gone from "having Church" to "Business as usual".

I have lived though building programs, I have seen minstry from Pastor to staff burn out and backslide, was it all because of a bulding...of course NOT, but having said that, alot of the frustration and burnout was due largely in part to trying to keep the pace of building programs, large utility bills, fundraisers, and even an onsite daycare facility.

As far as any pastor "slaving away", that is ridiculous, is he/she an infant child that they can't make sound adult decisions based on balanced perspective and common sense? Choices my friend, choices - not everything that happens in life is because of all the situations that happen around us, and certainly everyone has the free will to choose and lead as they see fit. If a person slaves away, it is in large part because they choose to do so, no more, no less.

Now a disclaimer, I do attend a church with bricks and mortar, I do love and support the ministry and saints there. Thankfully, at this point, this church is not overrun by status quo.

[Sister Alvear]

I think there is one word...Balance...in everything we do....

[coadie]

Building a church has a lot of problems. They continue if the construction is backed by debt. Egos also flourish when every body wants to make suggestions. I have worked in construction of a church when I was young. We had all the trades covered and everyone enjoyed the work.
The home church has many limitations. A lot of folks don't want to be in another persons personal residence.

[Aquila]

My issue isn't so much against the building. If a church wishes to have that kind of debt or responsibility... that's their choice. My issue is if we are having a "biblical" meeting. If all cannot prophesy... it's unbiblical.

In I Corinthians 14 Paul tells us how a church is to be run…

I Corinthians 14:26-40 (NIV)

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Paul here points out that everyone is free to bring a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. However all things are to be done in order and for the strengthening of the church. This means all may contribute but leave spiritual discipline in the hands of the elders and be sure that your teaching is something the entire group can benefit from.

27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

If someone gives an utterance in tongues it should be done by two – or at the most three- people. These utterances should be given one at a time and someone must interpret. If after the first utterance an interpretation isn’t gifted the speaker should keep quiet and silently pray.

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

In meetings at least two or three elders gifted to prophesy (preach, teach, etc.) should speak. All other members should weigh what they preach and teach carefully.

30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

If a brother is preaching or teaching and someone wishes to expound or share additional information regarding a subject the one who was first speaking should stop and give that brother the floor. This is so that every member has the opportunity to preach and teach during the meeting and as a result all are instructed and encouraged.

32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Those who feel led of God to speak should remember that they are subject to the control of the one or two established elders of the group. This is to maintain the order that God expects.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Women should not be disruptive when the men are speaking. They are to remain in submission, as is pleasing to God. However, please note, remaining in submission means that if a woman has something to say and she is permitted to speak by the elders, she may very well prophesy. If a woman has a question about something or sees an errant teaching she should bring it to her husband’s attention at home. To correct an elder or a brother in a gathering such as this may appear disrespectful. It is disgraceful for women to speak freely and run the meetings.



Others have pointed out that Paul may be quoting a common practice within the Corinthian church that demanded that women be completely silent. Paul is believed to address this with a rebuke in the following verses...

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

God’s Word didn’t originate with us; therefore we should heed and obey. That means that all my prophesy, even women. If anyone believes they are called of God or gifted to teach and/or preach that man should acknowledge that the order Paul is setting here is the Lord’s command. This is how church is done, there isn’t another option. If a man ignores the order set herein, that man should be ignored by the group and will not progress further into ministry.

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

It’s a good thing for all to be eager to teach and share about the Gospel. And we are not to forbid speaking in tongues altogether. Paul’s point is that all things in our meetings be done in a fitting and orderly way.



I imagine that networked house churches could agree to go in together for a monthly or quarterly meeting like a conference to maintain the bonds of fellowship.



Paul specifically stated that these are "the commandments of the Lord". This could mean that groups too large to allow for the freedom for all to speak and share (as biblically set in order by Paul) are technically breaking a commandment of the Lord and not set in the pattern as found in the Word of God.



Thoughts?





God bless.

[coadie]

If my God will supply all my needs, do we believe that when we place our faith in bank debt for a building program?

[Aquila]

Owning a building isn't wrong, nor is it a sin. However, if the congregation gets so large it becomes a "one man show"... the church becomes "unbiblical" in it's fellowship. If a church is so large that it cannot allow ALL to speak and prophesy in a given meeting, break out groups, care groups, cell churches, or something must be integrated to fulfill the standards set by Paul. The body is to minister to itself. Ministry isn't a calling for only one man in the congregation. The entire body must minister to one another. This is best done in smaller home based groups. Sadly... our legacy is "spectator Christianity" wherein Christians gather to "watch" and "listen" to one man's oratory. Sometimes there are varying degrees of praise and worship... however, people are largely just spectators who attend and go home after having watched the show. MILLIONS of Christians have never found their ministry, their place, or their gifts to offer the body because they are pew ridden.