A new twist on "Phariseeism?"

[Rob McKee]

If I get to Heaven and find out that our outward adorning, baptism in Jesus name only and separation from the world through a chaised lifestyle meant nothing to God....

I will ask God why he lied? God doesn't lie.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

If I get to Heaven and find out that our outward adorning, baptism in Jesus name only and separation from the world through a chaised lifestyle meant nothing to God....

I will ask God why he lied? God doesn't lie.

Oh please.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Oh please.

You could try asking him that...I don't think it will work though.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

You could try asking him that...I don't think it will work though.

The theological haughtiness and arrogance from your little corner of the religious world is nauseating.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Pentecost is sounding more and more like one long commercial jingle

Isn't that the truth! One cliche after another. Sound-bites. People seem to think that sound-bites are enough. They think they can shoot down everything you say by just replying with a cliche.

"We're supposed to be a peculiar people." "We are supposed to be separate from the world." On and on and on. No real discussion of the scriptures, or the meanings of the scriptures. Just sound bites. I'm so tired of it.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Justin, I agree that's the best way to read that. However, it's not explicit or clear.

I like what follows:

Instead of giving you God's Law as food and drink by which you can banquet on God, they package it in bundles of rules, loading you down like pack animals. They seem to take pleasure in watching you stagger under these loads, and wouldn't think of lifting a finger to help. Their lives are perpetual fashion shows, embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next. They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called 'Doctor' and 'Reverend.'

Ouch, ouch, ouch.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

If I get to Heaven and find out that our outward adorning, baptism in Jesus name only and separation from the world through a chaised lifestyle meant nothing to God....

I will ask God why he lied? God doesn't lie.

Whoa. Strong words. Calling God a liar if he disagrees with your interpretation. Better hope you're right.

coming back to add:

Wow. I've been sitting here for 10 minutes feeling more and more stunned by the audacity of that statement. Seriously??!!?? You study the Bible, you think you understand what it means (even though there are many, many, many honest people who have studied the Bible and come away with a different understanding).... and if you get to heaven and God doesn't agree with you, you're going to call GOD a LIAR????? I say again.... Wow.

(and just for the record, it's 'chaste'. I don't think 'chaised' is a word.)

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

If I get to Heaven and find out that our outward adorning, baptism in Jesus name only and separation from the world through a chaised lifestyle meant nothing to God....

I will ask God why he lied? God doesn't lie.

I wouldn't put it that strong. God lied?
I don't think it is whether God lied or did not lie.
I think it's just our (human) understanding of the Word.

I try to line up my beliefs to the Word.
I try to adjust my beliefs to the Word, not try to find something in the Word to justify my beliefs.
I honestly think the way I believe conforms to the Word but another person reading the same Word may come up with some other ideas. I realize that this side of perfection (rapture and glorification of the church) we all see into the glass/mirror imperfectly and we have partial knowledge. Rather than knock one another we need to respect one another and accept the fact that we are not going to see eye to eye with one another on all things.

[Rob McKee]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Isn't that the truth! One cliche after another. Sound-bites. People seem to think that sound-bites are enough. They think they can shoot down everything you say by just replying with a cliche.

"We're supposed to be a peculiar people." "We are supposed to be separate from the world." On and on and on. No real discussion of the scriptures, or the meanings of the scriptures. Just sound bites. I'm so tired of it.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've found debate really changes little. It really is silly to debate. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking... Occasionally they will find a former upc church that doesn't claim to teach this doctrine.. Yet it quickly deals away the doctrine of the imperative obedience to Acts 2:38.

While I do not subscribe to the idea that those who accept the doctrine of the pre-universal-doctrine-doesn't-matter church can never return to a love for the truth, I do believe that it is very very difficult. The amount of crow some would have to eat with their families and former pastors make it a pride-pill impossible to swallow.

So to answer your comment...this wasn't an attack against anyone. No arrogance... This post was copied from my facebook page and submitted here for mostly negative critique. I'm responsible for the church I pastor... If you don't believe the doctrine...walk out the door. The problem is some are so bitter towards some supposed UPC conspiracy to hurt them that they cannot walk away...ex Dan. It has some of you bound...you cannot walk away. It's not doctrinal issue so much as it is a personal spirit of unforgiveness I realize this doesn't apply to everyone...but many like Dan are seething packages of pain and bitterness.
Got to run...
Rob McKee (copyright 2010)<---in jest

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Rob McKee

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I've found debate really changes little. It really is silly to debate. If I showed you scripture...would you change? I could show 15 scriptures to prove our doctrinal stance...and re- comment every comment but it wouldn't changed the minds of those that are determined to believe.

The only hope for those who have abandoned the truth their parents preached (like Dan) is to realize the power is gone from their lives and churches...of course they rarely admit it's because of their abandoning of the doctrine of separation. So they continue their search for a "spirit-filled breakthrough church that doesn't teach separation in lifestyle and they are still looking...

Oh, in that post I wasn't even talking about you. Prax's post just triggered one of my hot buttons.

Would I change if we discussed? Absolutely, if I believed you were correct. This is what many of us find offensive.... if we disagree with mainstream Pentecostal thought, you just write us off. We 'don't want to believe truth'. I was raised Pentecostal, my family is all Pentecostal. According to you, I've "left truth".

Do you know what this "leaving truth" has cost me personally? Trust me, the cost has been, and continues to be, enormous. I "left truth" because I no longer believed it to be true. I studied and studied, discussed and discussed, and I came to different conclusions than mainstream Pentecostals have come to. I could no longer walk before God with integrity while pretending to believe things I didn't truly believe.

I promise you I have an open mind. I want nothing more than to be right with God. If you could show me by scripture that I was wrong, absolutely I would change! But 'by scripture' I don't mean scripture that is looked at through the lens of Pentecostalism. I mean scripture that is looked at through no lens at all.... just plain and simple scripture, rightly divided, in historical context.

As far as the power being out of our churches? Certainly not true for my church. The power of God is just as real and strong in my church as it was in any Pentecostal church I've ever been in.