John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST?

[pelathais]

MacArthur is (was!) recorded in a video with text here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the from the Google cache of a conference where he was apparently a keynote speaker. Here he says, "Sovereign election has already determined who will constitute the redeemed church. That was determined in the counsels of the Trinity before time began."

It is a common term used quite a bit by Evangelicals and others:

The Archbishop of Canterbury:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1968

Wayne Gruden (a popular writer and theologian):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

J.C. Ryle (Victorian Era Bishop of Liverpool whose books are still popular):
http://rediscoveringthebible.com/Ryle14vv12-17.pdf

[CC1]

Originally Posted by pelathais

MacArthur is (was!) recorded in a video with text here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the from the Google cache of a conference where he was apparently a keynote speaker. Here he says, "Sovereign election has already determined who will constitute the redeemed church. That was determined in the counsels of the Trinity before time began."

Any transcripts available of these "cousnels of the Trinity before time began"? Sounds interesting!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by pelathais

MacArthur is (was!) recorded in a video with text here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the from the Google cache of a conference where he was apparently a keynote speaker. Here he says, "Sovereign election has already determined who will constitute the redeemed church. That was determined in the counsels of the Trinity before time began."

It is a common term used quite a bit by Evangelicals and others:

The Archbishop of Canterbury:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1968

Wayne Gruden (a popular writer and theologian):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

J.C. Ryle (Victorian Era Bishop of Liverpool whose books are still popular):
http://rediscoveringthebible.com/Ryle14vv12-17.pdf

Sovereign election has already been determined. It has determined who will be saved and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councils of the Trinity before time began.

source: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons...rowth+movement

Pel, I understand where your coming from. John MacArthurs website has the text of the sermon above using the term "councils". I don't really care which he meant, but my mai point was that trinitarians DO certainly at least speak of God in a way that lends itself towards the tritheism they so vehemently deny they believe. I've already mentioned my respect for John MacArthur, so this thread wasn't an attack at him.

However, in the creation thread you were really take hard digs at me over this, when in reality it seems at least plausible, if not probable that I understood exactly what he said. I guess all I'm asking is quit using my response to his comments in an effort to undermine my credibility, especially in light that his official website text of the sermon has the exact tem that I thought I heard him use.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Sovereign election has already been determined. It has determined who will be saved and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councils of the Trinity before time began.

source: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons...rowth+movement

Pel, I understand where your coming from. John MacArthurs website has the text of the sermon above using the term "councils". I don't really care which he meant, but my mai point was that trinitarians DO certainly at least speak of God in a way that lends itself towards the tritheism they so vehemently deny they believe. I've already mentioned my respect for John MacArthur, so this thread wasn't an attack at him.

However, in the creation thread you were really take hard digs at me over this, when in reality it seems at least plausible, if not probable that I understood exactly what he said. I guess all I'm asking is quit using my response to his comments in an effort to undermine my credibility, especially in light that his official website text of the sermon has the exact tem that I thought I heard him use.

Thanks Jason, however, since this phrase is so ubiquitous and even Biblical ("counsel"), and the fact that other texts of MacArthur's same use of the phrase has it as "counsel" (see my post above), I have taken the trouble to bring this matter up with his webmaster(s) - (see attached).

This might be interesting. Who knows?

[Jason B]

While I was on Grace To You I heard this response to a question on the trinity. i quoted a post I put on CARM:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

YASHAM: I was excited to come.
JOHN: That's good.
YASHAM: My name is Yasham, and I'm a new believer. So I kind of have a complex question. The Trinity...I understand the Holy Ghost. I understand God, our Father. And then, I get to Christ. And there are references in the Bible that He's the Lord. There's references that He is the Son of God, that He is Son of Man, and, that He also takes care of the earth. But, we also are praying to God, Father. So, I'm confused.


CONFUSED ABOUT THE TRINITY?

JOHN: Well, you're not really confused. You're just right on target.

She's confused, JMA says, "well your right on". He's correct on one count, the trinity is pure confusion. MacArthur is continued below, its a bit lengthy so I won't comment, just putting it out there. The yellow highlights are from my searching key words to find this Q &A, I don't know how to undo them in cut and paste, please disregard the highlights.

(MacArthur continued) "you've recognized the mystery of the Trinity. And the mystery of the Trinity is that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ as well. You have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you. You have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, and, you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by Christ. And yet, it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the face of the waters and brought creation into existence. You pray to God, and yet, you can pray to the Son of God, and you can also pray to the Spirit of God, and you have indications of that all throughout Scripture.

You see particular responsibilities that members of the Trinity have, but, as far as the person is concerned, you cannot draw hard lines between them. We do know that God is the Creator; the Old Testament talks about that. He is the Creator. And, thus, He bears the name Father as the Source, as it were. But, we also know that nothing was made without Christ. That's the way the gospel of John begins. "All things were made by Him, and nothing was made that was not made by Him." And so we do understand that, while the Father was doing the creation, as identified in the Old Testament, He was not apart from the Son, nor was He apart from the Spirit.

You have, in the Trinity, an indivisible oneness, and yet, specifically, there are duties that members of the Trinity are stated to have been given. The Father, as we understand, is primarily viewed in Scripture as the Creator and the Source of Life. The Son is primarily viewed as the Savior and the Redeemer, but God is also the Redeemer: "God our Redeemer," the Old Testament says. And, so, I understand the confusion, but it's not really confusion. It is simply an awakening, recognition of the mystery of the Trinity. God and Jesus are the same. God and the Holy Spirit are the same, and yet, they are distinctly three persons. Now, that is paradoxical, apparently, to us, that is contradictory, apparently to us, and that is inscrutable. If you have one God, one God, and that one God has always had three persons within the one God.

You're just awakening to the fact that this is an impossible reality to explain. So, what we say about that is, you can't figure it out.

...When you asked the question about why is Salvation through His Son...what greater demonstration could God ever make of His love than to give up a member of the Trinity whom He loved with a perfect love? " END QUOTE

Wow. I don't believe trinitarians are tritheistic, BUT I think an honest trinitarian would have to admit, that there seems pretty tritheistic.


Now, for those of you who will say I'm attempting to discredit trinitarians or specifically John MacArthur, I would have you to know he is one of, perhaps my favorite, preachers and authors. I thoughly enjoy his teachings and writings (though I don't agree with his trinitarianism, calvinism, and a couple of other areas) and greatly appreciated the stands he took on Larry King, especially when compared with those of Joel Osteen.

Click the link for the text version. On the page there is an option to listen. The audio is long, however this was the first question of the night, so if you listen to the first five minutes you'll get the question. This explaination of the trinity is terribly unconvincing.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons...nswers+part+53

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Thanks Jason, however, since this phrase is so ubiquitous and even Biblical ("counsel"), and the fact that other texts of MacArthur's same use of the phrase has it as "counsel" (see my post above), I have taken the trouble to bring this matter up with his webmaster(s) - (see attached).

This might be interesting. Who knows?

One of these days I've got to learn that capture screen trick.

Yeah, maybe they will correct it OR maybe not. It could be interesting. he certainly makes some doozie comments about the trinity. The post I just made was before I saw your reply, but its an example of some of the things he says.

PS-I'm glad you chilled out a bit, you've been somewhat moody here lately.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sam

"The Bible says that in the beginning there was only God. He has always been. God has no beginning and no ending. There were no sun, no stars, no planets, no Earth --and no people.There was just God But He was not alone, because God is really three persons --God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three together are God."
I Believe in Jesus
Leading Your Child to Christ
by John MacArthur copyright 1999

The way that Dr. MacArthur says that --that God was "not alone, because God is really three persons" sounds almost tri-theistic, doesn't it?

I didn't notice this post earlier. It is very polytheistic.

I really enjoy JM's bible teaching, it is some of the finest I've heard. What I think is that many trinitarians simply accept the trinity as orthodoxy becuase its what they've been fed all their lives, but in reality it just doesn't make any sense. But they have been preconditioned against any other view so that even when exposed to another view such as oneness, they are automatically on the defensive. I think that is whats stifling fellowship more than anything is that some folks are judging other folks in areas where they themselves admit to have absolutely no idea how their trnity doctrine makes sense. (see other thread here:http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=31809)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I didn't notice this post earlier. It is very polytheistic.

I really enjoy JM's bible teaching, it is some of the finest I've heard. What I think is that many trinitarians simply accept the trinity as orthodoxy becuase its what they've been fed all their lives, but in reality it just doesn't make any sense. But they have been preconditioned against any other view so that even when exposed to another view such as oneness, they are automatically on the defensive. I think that is whats stifling fellowship more than anything is that some folks are judging other folks in areas where they themselves admit to have absolutely no idea how their trnity doctrine makes sense. (see other thread here:http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=31809)

This is not a personal attack.


If the Godhead is so easily defined and explained by you, what or who does that make you?

Where is the mystery?


It's not a biblical requirement for salvation to understand Oneness.

It is a biblical requirement to recognize Jesus Christ as the SON of the Living GOD.

His identity as the SON is the ROCK that His CHURCH is built upon.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

This is not a personal attack.


If the Godhead is so easily defined and explained by you, what or who does that make you?

Where is the mystery?


It's not a biblical requirement for salvation to understand Oneness.

It is a biblical requirement to recognize Jesus Christ as the SON of the Living GOD.

His identity as the SON is the ROCK that His CHURCH is built upon.

JD, I've never claimed to be the be all and end all final authority on the godhead. However, I do believe that the "mystery" of godlineness is not concerning how many "persons" there are of God, but refers to the incarnation and the complexities thereof.

My point in this thread and the other thread is why are so many trinitarians so aggressive against oneness people and their theology to the point of broad bushingly condmening them all to hell on one hand, and on the other hand making nonsense statements and admitting that they "do not understand the trinity, they can't explain it, they just believe it."

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

JD, I've never claimed to be the be all and end all final authority on the godhead. However, I do believe that the "mystery" of godlineness is not concerning how many "persons" there are of God, but refers to the incarnation and the complexities thereof.

My point in this thread and the other thread is why are so many trinitarians so aggressive against oneness people and their theology to the point of broad bushingly condmening them all to hell on one hand, and on the other hand making nonsense statements and admitting that they "do not understand the trinity, they can't explain it, they just believe it."

I just don't see or hear that many Trinitarians sending Oneness people to hell because of our theology.