Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I'm coming in late on this conversation, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what someone else may have already said.

First, I have gay friends and over the years I have tried my best to understand their take on the gay agenda. I'm 50 years old, and at this age many of us become more sympathetic or merciful to those whom we considered wrong in the past. Our own mistakes bring about humility in regards to situations like this and I have honestly tried to understand the homosexual lifestyle.

My problem with the gay lifestyle is simple (at least I think it is simple). Azzan, you consider your lifestyle or choice natural. You feel you were born this way, and that confirms your feeling about being gay.

A natural choice should confirm a natural response or reaction. For instance, the Sun is the Sun because it is warm, provides light, and helps our planet to grow food to sustain life. The Sun would not be the Sun if it didn't provide us these benefits, at least on Planet Earth where humans exist. We expect the Sun to perform and do its duty from a natural standpoint.

If the Sun leaves these natural boundaries, we die. When people leave natural boundaries, we die.

Without becoming too graphic here, when the gay agenda is revealed in honesty, the male organ does not belong where gay men put "It". Many gay men require diapers, surgery, and have a great deal of infection in their urinary tract from using the anis for sexual pleasure. Also, sperm is meant for the vagina of a woman where life is produced. Once people leave the natural sexual function of a man and a woman, problems are not only obvious, they are unnatural and unscientific.

If a gay person decided to live with the same gender without having sex, I could see that as being a productive lifestyle for some. But once sex is brought into the picture, I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being of a natural affection.

That's correct. Aside from what morality we accept from Christianity, it's hard to see it as natural. In no circumstances is there reproduction. There's no life in it. Someone who puts things together could look at males and females and no what parts go where. It's "plain" to us (Rom 1 drive-by reference)

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I'm coming in late on this conversation, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what someone else may have already said.

First, I have gay friends and over the years I have tried my best to understand their take on the gay agenda. I'm 50 years old, and at this age many of us become more sympathetic or merciful to those whom we considered wrong in the past. Our own mistakes bring about humility in regards to situations like this and I have honestly tried to understand the homosexual lifestyle.

My problem with the gay lifestyle is simple (at least I think it is simple). Azzan, you consider your lifestyle or choice natural. You feel you were born this way, and that confirms your feeling about being gay.

A natural choice should confirm a natural response or reaction. For instance, the Sun is the Sun because it is warm, provides light, and helps our planet to grow food to sustain life. The Sun would not be the Sun if it didn't provide us these benefits, at least on Planet Earth where humans exist. We expect the Sun to perform and do its duty from a natural standpoint.

If the Sun leaves these natural boundaries, we die. When people leave natural boundaries, we die.

Without becoming too graphic here, when the gay agenda is revealed in honesty, the male organ does not belong where gay men put "It". Many gay men require diapers, surgery, and have a great deal of infection in their urinary tract from using the anis for sexual pleasure. Also, sperm is meant for the vagina of a woman where life is produced. Once people leave the natural sexual function of a man and a woman, problems are not only obvious, they are unnatural and unscientific.

If a gay person decided to live with the same gender without having sex, I could see that as being a productive lifestyle for some. But once sex is brought into the picture, I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being of a natural affection.

Good post.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Azzan

I could function with my spouse if that is what you mean.

At what point in your life did you realize you were actually gay?

Since we don't know you on a personal level, could you respond to a few questions presented as theories?

1) What was your family structure like (single-parent home)?
2) What was your relationship with your father?
3) Any early child sexual abuse/sexual exposure young?
4) Any deep issues with pornography in your adolescent ages that turned into addictions?
5) What was your social life like in grade school?

I don't say this to marginalize you, but to test obvious theories that many sociologists and particularly psychologists have suggested. Obviously, there is no consensus about being born gay, having a 'gay gene" or anything else. In fact, it's safe to say it's a theory largely unproven. Many who say they were born that way have attempted to cope with their sexuality. They've owned it as theirs. They've looked back into their childhood and defined things in that perspective. Many psychologists would tell you that many boys have had sexual curiosity (without it being homosexual) about other men.

Either way, I have no problem if someone feels they were born that way. I was born a sinner too. I was born selfish. I was born unregenerate. I was born as someone who looked out only for myself.

The thing I always remember-- in spite of my brokenness, I am made in God's image. You are made in God's image. It's a wonderful definition factor.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Admin

An introduction to AFF policy for newbies and refresher for others:


From the Admin of the Apostolic Friends Forum

As Christians, our response to the issue of homosexuality is twofold:

1. Homosexuality is one of many sins that bring destruction and pain to the life of the sinner. There can be no positive outcome of sin, so compassion for the sinner requires that we lovingly apprise them of their need for change. Withholding truth from the lost is not a loving or compassionate response to their state. Therefore the forum will not shy away from noting what is sin from a scriptural standpoint, providing that truth is shared in love.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2. The Christian response to a sinner should be the same, no matter what the sin. We should respond with a biblically based solution that illustrates clearly the sinful nature of any particular deed, and also clearly illustrates the compassionate response of Christ to sin. He offers forgiveness to the repentant, plain and simple, and new life in Him. It is not judgmental to acknowledge what is sin, and in fact it is destructive to turn a blind eye to sin. If the lost are not convinced that they are in a position of estrangement from God, they will never be able to come to a place of repentance and be a recipient of His mercy. Therefore, as Christians, both on this forum, and in our personal lives, we should seek to lead sinners to repentance, so they might find new life in Christ.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

As forum Admin, we will not allow the gay agenda to be pushed on this forum. Meaning, we will not allow a constant barrage of rhetoric designed to make those who adhere to biblical values and scriptural truths feel guilty or inferior. We will not allow a push for acceptance of the gay agenda and lifestyle, and call a rejection thereof a rejection of the individual. They are not one and the same, and should not be treated as such. A rejection of sin is not a rejection of the sinner.

We will not allow a defense of the gay agenda and lifestyle by more liberal leaning minds, or overt criticism toward those who don't practice a similar tolerance for sin.

There are numerous forums online where the gay agenda can be openly proclaimed, even within Christian ranks. There are numerous Christian groups (using the term loosely) who have decided to accept practicing homosexuals as brethren, and perhaps feel they are practicing the love of Christ in doing so. We feel they err, because the love of Christ involves freeing a soul from sin; not encouraging the soul to continue to wallow in the mire.

Therefore, while we allow debate and discussion on the AFF, and we encourage anyone to join who shares an interest in Apostolic topics and concerns, we will not allow an overt attack on biblical values and truths, and upon the character of those who live and preach the same.

Hopefully this will help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates.

I haven't heard anyone "attack." That was a little preemptive. We should be a safe community for anyone to come and discuss this. IMO

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't think it was Azzan. It serves more as a warning to the entire board to not allow the discussion to head that direction

I'm sorry guys, this is a little goofy.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I'm sorry guys, this is a little goofy.

Can't ever be too careful, Mr. Jeffrey!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

Praxeas, I think that is so totally out of bounds to ask someone a question like that. Totally inappropriate!
I don't think it is any of any one else's business what he did or felt with his wife.

I think it's in-bounds. He can decline to say or say. He is posting anonymously. These are questions many of us have. The topic is sexuality, so sex would be part of that.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

I certainly don't think he should! I think it is all pretty obvious without asking. He was married and had kids and was attracted to the same sex. There are a lot of people with same sex attraction and some in ministry are that are married with kids.

I can tell you two stories, from people I know personally, that were married to a man for over a year without either never having sex at all, or having sex only a few times. In the end, man #1 was addicted to homosexual pornography and later announced himself as gay... man #2 had sexual issues as well (also related to pornography).

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I read the statement and it appears like something less than a "warning".

As you know, this is a controversial issue and as such may need guided discussion/debate.

The last line pretty much sums it up I think.

"Hopefully this will help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates"

One has to wonder what the message is saying or meaning. It obviously feels like a "whoa there" message. Whether that was the intention or not. We get a little hyper-sensitive about this issue, meanwhile 99.99999% of Evangelical Christians have this in their Top 2 of passion issues.... they can rage about it, but can't discuss it comfortably.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Earlier in this thread, as several of us were bantering about our opinions and blowing smoke with limited knowledge, I appealed for a person who actually knows what they're talking about on the subject, to join in.

I received an PM from Azzan and after a few PM's he/she decided to join in. But predictably, the conversation went a little south, although it took longer than I thought and I've seen it get much worse in the past. To those who conducted a civil conversation with Azzan and were welcoming, thank you!

I just received this PM from him/her and with permission, I'm posting it. I, for one, welcome his/her insights on not only this subject but others as well. He/she is well-spoken, articulate, and well-informed.

But there's a chance he/she will not continue. So here is the PM for your thoughts, consideration, and comments.




"The idiotic questions don't bother me as long as it doesn't degrade into a mess. I have a good idea where Prax is going and I am fine with it. I think my answers to his line of thought may surprise him.

BTW, I am finding it HIGHLY amusing that everyone thinks I am a man.

I find it interesting that others bring up the 'ick' factor when I am doing my level best to be as 'kosher' as possible.

I find it hard to believe that the admin post was 'less than a warning'. For what's it worth, I know all about the rules of this forum. I've been hanging around here for over a year. I was doing my level best to not advocate anything but rather provide insight and be a source of information.

I gues I am not surprised at this reaction. And Christians wonder why gays get all militant and openly dispise God, church and everything that goes with it. Or why we stay in the closet?

Feel free to post this private PM to the thread. I don't expect it change anyone's mind but perhaps it will stimulate more conversaion."

Glad he posted. He should just come back on. I guess the assumption that he is a man could have been corrected easily by the poster correcting us early on. The words "lesbian" have not come out yet. When men discuss homosexuality, we are guilty of thinking quickly of men.