Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[Jeffrey]

Azzan,

Know this, no matter where you are on your faith journey. Jesus loves you. He loves you madly, deeply. You are His son/daughter, in His own image! He looks at you and doesn't see what others see that define a person's life, he sees something much more... he chases after you, seeks you, longs for you, and wants nothing more than your best in mind. More than anything, He wants you to believe that. To trust Him. The moment you do, when we believe He is who He said He is... beautiful things happen.

I say that not as a "fix all" but as an encouragement. And saying that, reminded me all over again as well....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Yep, ME!!

Me too! I love to see the looks on people's faces when I walk across the water at the pool. lol

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Aquila

lol

Have you wanted to? lol

No - never.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Aquila, thanks for responding.

I have to disagree with your overall perspective on homosexual being "natural" -- even after the order of fallen man. I'm not one who boasts about sinful hierarchies, but I do believe homosexuality to be a great sin qualitatively (not quantitatively). In other words, it's not worse than yours or mine in it's depth, it's worse in the jaded lie man has bought in that case.

I've spent much time looking at this pericope below -- which could feel pages and pages:

21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they(AN) became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22(AO) Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and(AP) exchanged the glory of(AQ) the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24Therefore(AR) God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to(AS) the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for(AT) a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,(AU) who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason(AV) God gave them up to(AW) dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,(AX) men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


The "God gave them" I interpret as God let it be so. They believed the lie, and he let them. This isn't, IMO, always some conscious effort. Notice, though, that Paul's calls these "dishonorable passions" and says "natural relations" were given up for "one another." He calls these "shameless acts." Acts done without any shame.

Now, I understand Paul's "set-up" here in the first chapter is not on the subject of homosexuality. I do know, however, that it is explicitly mentioned here. In general, the subject is that Gentiles are without excuse, just as much as Jews are (despite them maybe using the argument "If God had chosen us, or come to us, we wouldn't have screwed up as bad") Instead, Paul makes it clear that none are without excuse. All are guilty. Equally guilty. In his argument, though, he shows the process of sin, and how twisted and yes, unnatural, it can become. Heterosexual sex is natural. It works that way. Our bodies were made for it. The tools fit. It's plain, Aquila. Fornication is even natural in this regard! Homosexuality is not. It's unnatural. This is why some quacks have called homosexuality a psychological disorder. I disagree with those fringe psychologists. I think, whether direct choice or not, it's a product of sin -- but sin that has produced depraved and unnatural affections. It's marred. It's certainly due to our fallen nature. But not all sin is 'unnatural.'

I don't pretend to have it figured out, and like you, I agree it's complex. What I do know, is that there is hope. But to say there's on difference in homosexuality than heterosexual fornication is naive at best.

Parents aren't always the blame for environment. It's not always directly something they did (where environment does, in fact, play a part), but rather something the child was exposed to. But if parents have guilt for abusive parenting, then there's nothing wrong with them feeling guilty. It's not a bad thing. That's a God-thing to bring them back on track. When people point back and say they were "gay at 8," call me cynical, but I find that hard to believe. I think it's a form of personal historical revisioning. It doesn't ruin any argument or theory if they do feel that way, and indeed it is true.

I also agree it's sometimes a kink -- not necessarily that they prefer, but that they ended up with. For others it's related to trauma or identifying due to difficult circumstances, insecurities, physical differences, etc.

I believe a child can be born "more inclined" or "more susceptible" but I simply cannot accept, at this point, that there is any truth to people being born homosexual. If I'm wrong, that's okay too. People are born with many disorders -- and if it were a DNA thing, I would definitely point to homosexual as a genetic disorder.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Azzan,

Know this, no matter where you are on your faith journey. Jesus loves you. He loves you madly, deeply. You are His son/daughter, in His own image! He looks at you and doesn't see what others see that define a person's life, he sees something much more... he chases after you, seeks you, longs for you, and wants nothing more than your best in mind. More than anything, He wants you to believe that. To trust Him. The moment you do, when we believe He is who He said He is... beautiful things happen.

I say that not as a "fix all" but as an encouragement. And saying that, reminded me all over again as well....

Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[Jeffrey]

This post is not directed to Azzan, but a general post on the subject of homosexuality since I've heard some different angles so far.

The questions are:
Is homosexuality a consciously learned behavior? An inherited genetic or hormonal influence? A condition that can be changed by appropriate psychological treatment? Is the current Western bias (caused from Judeo-Christian ethic) exclusive, or has there been a bias in virtually all civilizations? How should Christians respond as a community and individually?

The very definition of homosexuality:
"... one who in adult life is motivated by "a definite preferential erotic attraction to members of the same sex and who usually (but not necessarily) engage in overt sexual relations with them." This acknowledges that some adults, like prison inmates, engage in homosexual acts, but not on the basis of persistent orientation.

We know homosexuality goes back to prehistoric art -- it's been around as long as mankind has. 6th Century Greek art and literature reference homosexuality (it's a mistake, however, to conclude that homosexuality was accepted by Greeks as a societal norm -- Aristotle , Herodotus, etc all expressed moral disapproval -- only a minority in the upper classes approved and accepted it). Many cultures like the Vikings, Celts, Vandals, etc all punished homosexuality. So these attitudes go back quite a ways. So we can understand the Western Civ is reinforcing convictions already present.

1000-1500 during urbanization, homosexuality increased. One of the biggest lies, however, is that Western Civ is exclusive in their disapproval as a societal norm because of the Judeo-Christian tradition. This is false (Ford and Beach, Patterns of Sexual Behavior, 1951).

Dr. Warren Gadpaille, a secular psychatrist at Univ of CO states "from an evolutionary perspective, homosexuality as a preferential or obligatory mode must by definition be biologically deviant."

Causes:
Though genetic and chromosomal factors are almost always brought up, "there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals or bisexuals of any degree or type are chromosomally discrepant from heterosexuals" (Dr. John Money, John Hopkins Univ, leading authority on physiological aspects of human sexuality).

Hormonal imbalances
Something to consider. But it's been pointed out that while sex hormones are crucial for physiological development of the organs needed for sexual acts, etc.. .psychological factors are the crucial elements that influence the choice of sexual partner and the intensity of those emotions (Tourney). Treating male homosexuals with hormones has not resulted in any cases where the man significantly altered his sexual preference.

There's entire books written on the above. I won't try to do that.

The witness of Scripture should be taken into account as well. I like what Michael Ukleja says: "Only towering cynicism can pretend that there is any doubt what the Scriptures say about homosexuality." Foundational is the Creation account itself. God's original creative intent is male and female in his own image and likeness. Human sexuality is reflected in the differentiation of two (not 3 or 4) genders, or some androgynous combination of both. Sexual differientation is the basis of marriage (Gen2:18), procreation, family life -- the primal form of human community.

The Sin Issue
Gen also tells us that human life, including sexuality, no longer reflects fully the original divine intent, because man's life is disordered by sin. The marriage relationship betwen image bearers, intended to be a reflection of God's love for man, is instead marked by lust, violence, and the struggle for dominance and power. Homosexuality is simply one expression among many of the basic disordering (this is where I agree with Aquila).

Homosexuality is another form of idolatry.... I'll continue if it's alright...

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ummm... yes, straight is the way. But when it comes to "kinky" what's kinky? Even married couples have their... ummm... "interests". lol

True. Aren't you the one who occasionally advocates, or at least defends, plural marriage?

[Jeffrey]

There is this theory that a man's actions and disposition are separated. A man's disposition is the ultimate driving force behind his outward actions. God focuses primarily on the heart of man in Scripture. A wayward heart, however, put in the healing hands of God, is as redemptive as it gets.

I believe the Church should respond with clarity on the issue of homosexuality, while also offering personal support (not phobias and hatred) for homosexuals who seek to overcome such an orientation. I believe Christian congregations must honestly examine themselves in terms of their own attitudes toward homosexuality. The Bible nowhere teaches it's the unforgivable sin. Churches must exist as a fellowship that supports people in various kinds of personal brokenness, including this type. We must also realize the role of the Spirit (not just an instantaneous crisis moment), and the radical transforming power of Grace. The testimony is Paul's "such were some of you." Grace is not powerless. If Masters & Johnson can claim a 66 percent success rate in dealing wth homosexuals using secular techniques, can we doubt that with the power of God's Holy Spirit even more dramatic rates are possible? The issue is to not make one's entire journey to the Cross about homosexuality. That makes everything counter-productive. We must all approach God has broken, hear the Story of his reclamation, trust in Him and watch Grace plant itself as a seed -- and be prepared to watching it, and helping it grow.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This post is not directed to Azzan, but a general post on the subject of homosexuality since I've heard some different angles so far.

The questions are:
Is homosexuality a consciously learned behavior? An inherited genetic or hormonal influence? A condition that can be changed by appropriate psychological treatment? Is the current Western bias (caused from Judeo-Christian ethic) exclusive, or has there been a bias in virtually all civilizations? How should Christians respond as a community and individually?

The very definition of homosexuality:
"... one who in adult life is motivated by "a definite preferential erotic attraction to members of the same sex and who usually (but not necessarily) engage in overt sexual relations with them." This acknowledges that some adults, like prison inmates, engage in homosexual acts, but not on the basis of persistent orientation.

We know homosexuality goes back to prehistoric art -- it's been around as long as mankind has. 6th Century Greek art and literature reference homosexuality (it's a mistake, however, to conclude that homosexuality was accepted by Greeks as a societal norm -- Aristotle , Herodotus, etc all expressed moral disapproval -- only a minority in the upper classes approved and accepted it). Many cultures like the Vikings, Celts, Vandals, etc all punished homosexuality. So these attitudes go back quite a ways. So we can understand the Western Civ is reinforcing convictions already present.

1000-1500 during urbanization, homosexuality increased. One of the biggest lies, however, is that Western Civ is exclusive in their disapproval as a societal norm because of the Judeo-Christian tradition. This is false (Ford and Beach, Patterns of Sexual Behavior, 1951).

Dr. Warren Gadpaille, a secular psychatrist at Univ of CO states "from an evolutionary perspective, homosexuality as a preferential or obligatory mode must by definition be biologically deviant."

Causes:
Though genetic and chromosomal factors are almost always brought up, "there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals or bisexuals of any degree or type are chromosomally discrepant from heterosexuals" (Dr. John Money, John Hopkins Univ, leading authority on physiological aspects of human sexuality).

Hormonal imbalances
Something to consider. But it's been pointed out that while sex hormones are crucial for physiological development of the organs needed for sexual acts, etc.. .psychological factors are the crucial elements that influence the choice of sexual partner and the intensity of those emotions (Tourney). Treating male homosexuals with hormones has not resulted in any cases where the man significantly altered his sexual preference.

There's entire books written on the above. I won't try to do that.

The witness of Scripture should be taken into account as well. I like what Michael Ukleja says: "Only towering cynicism can pretend that there is any doubt what the Scriptures say about homosexuality." Foundational is the Creation account itself. God's original creative intent is male and female in his own image and likeness. Human sexuality is reflected in the differentiation of two (not 3 or 4) genders, or some androgynous combination of both. Sexual differientation is the basis of marriage (Gen2:18), procreation, family life -- the primal form of human community.

The Sin Issue
Gen also tells us that human life, including sexuality, no longer reflects fully the original divine intent, because man's life is disordered by sin. The marriage relationship betwen image bearers, intended to be a reflection of God's love for man, is instead marked by lust, violence, and the struggle for dominance and power. Homosexuality is simply one expression among many of the basic disordering (this is where I agree with Aquila).

Homosexuality is another form of idolatry.... I'll continue if it's alright...

So the bottom line is they shouldn't be prepared for battle and serve in the military because they have bushels of gender identity problems and can't focus on the enemy when they have "issues" as you claim.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

I'm not sure. I hear both arguments. I think we should be a civilization in 2010 that respects each other. We don't have to all agree that homosexuality is a societal norm to believe tolerance and loving people can be a societal norm. But even if the American public don't come to that conclusion, I would hope followers of Jesus would lead the way.

Whether the timing is right (while we are at war) or not, to me becomes the issue. That, and resolving how this changes things with regard to openly gay men living in close quarters with other men.