NOW, When Is Someone Saved? - Page 16

Adam · #**151** 10-24-2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

You know, if that's what baptism were for, that's why He would have been baptized, but since Christ was sinless, he must have been baptized for another reason!! Actually, the bible specifically says why he was baptized. Jesus told John the Baptist exactly why.

True. "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him." He was without the Spirit before being baptised. Therefore, he was a sinful man, just like any other man. He repented, was baptised, given the Spirit, then he was able to begin his ministry. Even afterwards he took a whip and threatened to kill people with it. So, I'm not so sure he was saved even after baptism. Perhaps that's why he spent so much time in the Garden of Gethsemane praying, asking God to forgive him for the sins he had committed that day.

notofworks · #**152** 10-24-2010, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandie

Jesus said: those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved. It all starts with faith, faith is essential, do you not agree with that? All thru Acts baptism is preached, we obey the Gospel by repenting, being baptized in HIS NAME for the remission of sins, and recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said we must be born again....of the water and the Spirit. Without faith we wouldn't do any of this.

When the temperature is below 40 and it snows, it is cold. When it is not below 40, it is not cold.

Damnation is only for those who believe not...not for those who aren't baptized.

Yes, Jesus said that in John 3, which we've already covered and we already know was talking about a natural birth and a spiritual birth.

Jesus also said we are to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. What do we do now? Man, he commanded it!

Jeffrey · #**153** 10-24-2010, 09:08 PM

It's not even about "when are you saved" -- it's a completely discounted view of God's role in salvation.

But if I must interact on the point, I'd leave off on just tongues alone and the predominant view that one MUST speak in tongues in order to be saved (to the point when evangelistic conferences are more about tongues experiences than Gospel stories).

notofworks · #**154** 10-24-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

True. "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him." He was without the Spirit before being baptised. Therefore, he was a sinful man, just like any other man. He repented, was baptised, given the Spirit, then he was able to begin his ministry. Even afterwards he took a whip and threatened to kill people with it. So, I'm not so sure he was saved even after baptism. Perhaps that's why he spent so much time in the Garden of Gethsemane praying, asking God to forgive him for the sins he had committed that day.

The Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove....I don't believe that's any indication he was sinful.

Are you saying Jesus wasn't sinless?

notofworks · #**155** 10-24-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

It's not even about "when are you saved" -- it's a completely discounted view of God's role in salvation.

But if I must interact on the point, I'd leave off on just tongues alone and the predominant view that one MUST speak in tongues in order to be saved (to the point when evangelistic conferences are more about tongues experiences than Gospel stories).

Yep, get going Jeffrey, you articulate this better than me. "One is coming who is greater than I!"

Jeffrey · #**156** 10-24-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandie

Jesus said: those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved. It all starts with faith, faith is essential, do you not agree with that? All thru Acts baptism is preached, we obey the Gospel by repenting, being baptized in HIS NAME for the remission of sins, and recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said we must be born again....of the water and the Spirit. Without faith we wouldn't do any of this.

"and he that doesn't believe will be damned." Notice the lack of reiteration of baptism. An exegesis of some of the best has shown how baptism was seen as a simultaneous picture of one coming to faith, not necessarily a secondary item "to be saved."

We don't OBEY the Gospel. We respond to the Gospel by believing. To say the Gospel is obeyed, you'd have to see the Gospel as a command. Where do you get that from? The Gospel is good news. It's His amazing story!

Regarding John 3:5 - the gravest error of 3-steppers is to proof-text the verse through Acts 2:38, instead of letting the context of John interpret John. Read the full Chapter and then tell me what you get from this "rebirth." I will tell you, when I saw grace for the first time, I could only describe it as being "born again." It fit so perfectly. It was an action of the Spirit in a regenerated heart to see and proclaim the Messiah.

Jeffrey · #**157** 10-24-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yep, get going Jeffrey, you articulate this better than me. "One is coming who is greater than I!"

Ha. Oh, please...

I can't articulate it enough. I think realizing these comes in doses... conversations, questions... searching... but I'm happy to interact with Sandie. I mean, "Such were some of us" right?

Hoovie · #**158** 10-24-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

So baptism is not a part of salvation.

I don't know that I would say that. It is a part of ceremonial induction into the body of Christ. We are baptized INTO Christ. If someone rejects baptism it certainly calls into question the conversion experience.

I don't know that I would want much separation betwixt the two. Those who believe should be baptized, period.

kayl · #**159** 10-24-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

"and he that doesn't believe will be damned." Notice the lack of reiteration of baptism. An exegesis of some of the best has shown how baptism was seen as a simultaneous picture of one coming to faith, not necessarily a secondary item "to be saved."

We don't OBEY the Gospel. We respond to the Gospel by believing. To say the Gospel is obeyed, you'd have to see the Gospel as a command. Where do you get that from? The Gospel is good news. It's His amazing story!

Regarding John 3:5 - the gravest error of 3-steppers is to proof-text the verse through Acts 2:38, instead of letting the context of John interpret John. Read the full Chapter and then tell me what you get from this "rebirth." I will tell you, when I saw grace for the first time, I could only describe it as being "born again." It fit so perfectly. It was an action of the Spirit in a regenerated heart to see and proclaim the Messiah.

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Adam · #**160** 10-24-2010, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

The Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove....I don't believe that's any indication he was sinful.

Are you saying Jesus wasn't sinless?

He was a man, he had to have made some error in his lifetime. He had all power, a miracle worker, could have struck us all dead, but gave it all up to hang on the cross. That was his sacrifice. That is what perfected him.