A ? about messianic jews.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Do many messianic Jews consult the Zohar, HaShaliach? Exactly what place does the Zohar have amongst Messianic Jews?

I doubt if a 'lot' of Messianic Jews rely on the Zohar much. However, the Kabbalah, as an oral teaching, does have a heavy influence in modern Judaism and, I think to a lesser extent, Messianic Judaism.

Even so, as you noted, the history the Kabbalah/Zohar has quite a trail behind it. The proponents of the oral teaching claim their history goes back to the Wilderness days, while the detractors claim it is the work of a 12th (? don't recall off hand) century Rabbi. But, even with that, the basic teaching was know from centuries earlier.

As Dr. Juster pointed out, the acceptance of the plural god precept was/is a Jewish position from both a scriptural language and religious (mystical) point of view - separate from Roman/Western Christianity religious views. It should also be noted that Jewish mysticism and Cristian mysticism are not that dissimilar, sharing a common historical background that starts with Abraham.

When we remember that much of our doctrines of today were first developed and codified by ministers who had little education in Christian or Hebrew history, a singular lack of knowledge in biblical languages, and even disparaged 'higher' education to a great extent, who, thinking that nothing more than the KJV of the Bible was necessary for a practicing Christian. Of course, to a a great extent, they were right!

But, here we have an example of deliberate ignorance concerning our Hebraic roots and religious heritage has come home to bite us. Thank you Emperor Constantine! Now, we must not only contend with the task of discrediting the Trinitarian Christian world view of God, but we must now confront our misconception of the Hebrew word view concerning the nature and composition of God.

Theologically, we are back to the issue of the Oneness 'indivisible deity' verses the Hebrew 'indivisible unity'. We can no longer claim that we, as Oneness believers, hold to the same view as the Jews concerning the manifestations of God. Our Torah linchpin of De 6:4 has also been effectively removed from the playing field.

The bottom line:

We can either choose to objectively reexamine our doctrinal positions, or we can choose to play the right/wrong games. I suspect we shall, as a whole, will continue with the games we are the most familiar with. Our traditions and the need for self-justification will override all other consideration.

A Disclaimer:

I have never attempted to convince anyone on this forum to change their belief system. Yet, what I have always encouraged is that everyone should continue to examine what they believe and why, and to make any required adjustments to the belief system based upon each individual's personal studies. I have also recommended that for those who are interested in where our Christian faith came from and how it was developed, to study its history, cultural background, the religious precepts upon which it is based, and the language in which it was originally communicated.

Therefore, everyone is now left with one of two choices. Leave everything you adhere to 'as is', or investigate your heritage more closely in order to discern the truth of your beliefs for yourself. The second choice is the most dangerous!

[A.W. Bowman]

Oh, and please - don't anyone ask me to defend Kabbalism. First, I don't know enough about it to either defend or challenge it, in whole or in part. But, it is significant in the history Judaism - separate from Western Christianity.

Also, Christianity is one of the most mystical religions on earth! If one believes in prayer (communication with God), or the Holy Ghost or revelation knowledge (spiritual interaction), then one is most likely a practicing mystic.

-------------------
Mysticism. A religion based on mystical communion with an ultimate reality

mys·tic
–adjective
1. involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content, as certain religious ceremonies and art; spiritually significant; ethereal. (e.g. baptisms, water and spirit)
2. of the nature of or pertaining to mysteries known only to the initiated: mystic rites. (e,g, revelation knowledge & prophecy)
3. of occult character, power, or significance: a mystic formula. (e.g. invoking Jesus Name)
4. of obscure or mysterious character or significance. (e.g. speaking in tongues)
5. of or pertaining to mystics or mysticism. (e.g. godlessness)

–noun
6. a person who claims to attain, or believes in the possibility of attaining, insight into mysteries transcending ordinary human knowledge, as by direct communication with the divine or immediate intuition in a state of spiritual ecstasy. (e,g, most ministers)
7. a person initiated into religious mysteries. (e.g. All licensed ministers)

[mfblume]

HaShaliach, we do indeed have to examine our roots and be willing to change our understanding. Unfortunately, as you indicated, continuing on in the same game of familiarity is where most will likely wind up. Most tend to defend the first thing they heard to the death, and are closed to anything different.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

HaShaliach, we do indeed have to examine our roots and be willing to change our understanding. Unfortunately, as you indicated, continuing on in the same game of familiarity is where most will likely wind up. Most tend to defend the first thing they heard to the death, and are closed to anything different.

And, there we have it! Fear of the unknown and fear of being wrong. Yet, we must also approach everything with discernment, less we be drawn into error while attempting to gain additional 'truth' (insight, knowledge).

There is a delicate balance that must be maintained throughout the entire process of study. Taking care on the one hand not to be deceived, and a willingness to remain teachable on the other, so as to remain ignorant of the deeper things of God.

I have found only a few teachers of note that I truly trust - and even then I checkout what they have to say! LOLOL

[Michael The Disciple]

Hashaliac

Theologically, we are back to the issue of the Oneness 'indivisible deity' verses the Hebrew 'indivisible unity'. We can no longer claim that we, as Oneness believers, hold to the same view as the Jews concerning the manifestations of God. Our Torah linchpin of De 6:4 has also been effectively removed from the playing field.

The problem is you are attempting whether knowingly or not to remove the battle over Oneness doctrine from the Tanakh. We Oneness Christians accept IT as the revelation of God to the Jewish people nothing else.

Now if we are WRONG on that point we could well be wrong about the Oneness of God. But if we are wrong on what books written by Jewish authors are really the Bible Christianity could become irrelevant anyway.

The Tanakh is without doubt presenting A God who is absolutely One. Thats what the entire Oneness Pentecostal restoration was all about.

See this is far to important to simply be "nice" to each other about. Many are trying to destroy the Oneness faith that was delivered to us by the Apostles. They seem to be doing a good job on this forum as more are doubting if not outright falling all the time.

[NotforSale]

Have any of you seen, "Hiding and Seeking"? This was an excellent film. I was very bothered by the fact that devout Jews would like to see the elimination of the Gentile. Here is a Trailer to the film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlGLhMAS9Bk

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The problem is you are attempting whether knowingly or not to remove the battle over Oneness doctrine from the Tanakh. We Oneness Christians accept IT as the revelation of God to the Jewish people nothing else.

Now if we are WRONG on that point we could well be wrong about the Oneness of God. But if we are wrong on what books written by Jewish authors are really the Bible Christianity could become irrelevant anyway.

The Tanakh is without doubt presenting A God who is absolutely One. Thats what the entire Oneness Pentecostal restoration was all about.

See this is far to important to simply be "nice" to each other about. Many are trying to destroy the Oneness faith that was delivered to us by the Apostles. They seem to be doing a good job on this forum as more are doubting if not outright falling all the time.

You have raised some valid points that require a sound response. I should have something for you tomorrow afternoon. Time tonight and again most of tomorrow poses a scheduling problem for me.

However, I still would remind everyone that the issue is not, 'is the Messianic view of God correct' (one can either accept or reject, as they wish), but upon what arguments do they rest their doctrines.

[mfblume]

An interesting fact is that Judaism today is actually the Pharisaic Judaism that existed in Jesus' day. The Sadducees' sect ended when the temple was destroyed. So what was left was the Pharisaical sect. Hmmmm...

[A.W. Bowman]

Michael, and any others who might be interested in my view of the questions (discussion points) Michael posed –

I apologize for the delay in responding. Yesterday turned from a 4 hour AM exercise into a 14 hour day. Even so, I will work to have something (hopefully something worth consideration) by this evening.

[A.W. Bowman]

The following posts are not directed to Michael, personally, but to the forum as a whole. He is the just the spokesman who has brought up some issues that are of concern to many here. Having to put this together while attempting to do several other task at the same time, I cannot vouch for its grammar, ease of reading, or even theological ‘soundness’! However, I trust that my offering here will spur some into a deeper study of the word, independent of church dogma and pastoral edicts. One important instruction in study practice: While one may read and study the word in private, as with prayer, resist the temptation to create your own doctrines without the council of spirit filled, knowledgeable, and mature saints of God. Yes, this group of councilors should also include a few and well trusted ‘ministers’.

Another word of caution: If you search the scriptures to ‘prove’ to yourself what it is that you already think you know, you will most likely come away from your studies learning nothing at all.