Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[freeatlast]

Oh yes...I'm one of them PCI one steppers now. I used to believe it took 3...no really about 7 to 14 steps to be saved.

I thank God that Christ took THEE STEP....the one step, that purchased my salvation

[OneAccord]

Yesterday, I took my wife to Huntsville for Chemo treatment. I didn't do the "Bewitched" thing and wiggle my nose and "poof!", we were in Huntsville.

No, first we had to set our destination. Huntsville. Then we had to prepare. Get dressed, get meds and treatment logs together. Then the wheelchair...gettin my wife in the van... but, still we weren't there. Had to do some things to get there. Had to get gas... had to drive...etc.

Salvation begins at repentance (IMO) It all starts there. But that doesn't necessarily complete the process, because salvation isn't instand pudding. The Bible says.... "He that endureth to the end shall be saved". We begin at repentance, but, as we progress, there are things we are to do, not to "earn" salvation" but to "solidify" our relationship with the Lord...to ensure we have "enough gas" to get there. Baptism (water) removes us from the world by "burying the old man with his deeds". The Holy Ghost is our Power to overcome temptation, bringing us into His Body. And we journey, we "put on holiness" by being led, not by traditions and man-made rules, but by the Holy Spirit that teaches us from God's Word. Along the way, we recieve revelations that help us to understand God...the Oneness of the Godhead, the nature of God...etc.
Are we saved without the Holy Ghost? No...He, (The Holy Ghost) begins leading us even before we repent by drawing us with the Gospel. Once we are freed from sin through repentance, He comes to dwell within us... and throughout our lives, He is there to lead us into all truth. But, no, we aren't saved without the Holy Ghost, for it is through and by the Holy Spirit that we are able to endure to the end.

[TRFrance]

I don't feel like doing a long post to argue with all the issues in your post. This post is already wearing me out. But I do want to respond to this part.

Originally Posted by freeatlast

These were inaugural events where we see tongues Jews / Samaritans/ Gentiles reciving salavation....the Samaritans and Gentiles just happened to speak in tongues as an evidence to the unbelieving Jews that were present. Jews that could not believe any body but them could be saved.

Ive heard that argument before, but...
Is that theology, or ideology? Does the bible tell you that the reason they "just happened" to speak in tongues in tongues there was as evidence to the unbelieving Jews? Does the bible say that, or is that view just based on supposition because it seems to "fit" ?

And as far as tongues only taking place at "inaugural events" , theres a big hole in your theory/doctrine there. How was it an "inaugural event" many years later when the former disciples of John received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues in Acts 19:1-6 ??. That was not at all an "inaugural event".

This post has been interesting, to say the least.
Its interesting to hear how you guys, think though, thats for sure.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

I recall many times being taught that the Epistles were written to teach the church how to stay saved, not how to be saved.

Then God showed me the language Paul used was reminding them how they got saved. by grace thru faith in God's imputed rightousness.

The reminders of how we were saved are inserted into Paul's writings but not as though he is expounding the on the doctrine of salvation step by step. They are intermingled with other things he is teaching. But I do agree with you that Paul does speak of how we were saved in different epistles, not at length and not fully in detail. One place may make a reference to water baptism, somewhere else may mention the indwelling Spirit, another spot faith another confession. We have to put them all together and make them harmonized with what the apostles taught in the book of Acts to unbelievers. You must agree that the epistles are written to the churches not to sinners and perhaps that is why Paul doesn't have one passage that specifically teaches Acts 2:38 since it is something the early church folks should know.

I also recall the teachihg that no one was ever saved in the gospels...you know you only find salvation in the book of Acts

Then again God showed me that John wrote the book of John more than 20 years or so AFTER the day of Pentecost.

John had witnessed people speaking in tongues and had surely seen people being baptized by the time he got around to writting his account.

Don' you find it a bit amazing that John never speaks of or mentions this "pentecostal" stuff after being a Pentecostal preacher all those years.

You're arguing from silence. I'm not surprised John didn't write what happened after Jesus ascendind into heaven in his gospel. Luke didn't write what he wrote in Acts 2 in his gospel either.

Most Pentecostal preachers today can't get thru their introduction without reiterating the necesity of speakinjg in tongues to saved...let alobne write a whole book and never mention it.

My pastor doesn't reiterate the necessity of speaking in tongues to be saved.

John even declares why he recorded all his writing about how if you "believe" in Jesus you will have eternal life. John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that by believing ye may have life in his name."

Without faith no on will be saved, no one will be batpized, no one will receive the Spirit, no pray will be answered, etc....

I remeber well , lessons I recieved that stated every place in the book of Acts that someone got save it is recorded that they spoke in tongues.

What Bible were you reading from?

HogW

ash !! Over 20 accounts of people or groups of people coming to faith in Christ and wee see only 3 or 4 accounts of tongues happening.

Have you gone over these accounts with a fine toothed comb? I have. Repentance is absent from some accounts as well. Recieving the Spirit is absent also. Confession isn't always present. Why is that? Does that mean God saves people differently? or is He no respect of persons and we all need to be born again of the water and of the Spirit? Why don't you answer the questions set forth by TRFrance? We can discuss these scriptures and if you like every single account of someone being saved in the book of Acts.

These were inagural events where we see tongues Jews / Samaritans/ Gentiles reciving salavation....the Samaritans and Gentiles just happened to speak in tongues as an evidence to the unbelieving Jews that were present. Jews that could not believe any body but them could be saved.

Sorry, if one receives the Spirit at faith it would not have been necessary for the apostles to go to Samaria to lay hands on them to recieve the Holy Spirit. Same with Acts 9 and 19. How many witnesses do you need? Is 4 instances of folks speaking in tongues upon receiving the Spirit not enough for you?

In no way does it state or imply that tongues will always occur when some one gets saved NOWHERE...but yet we ASSUME that it implys it will wlways happen.

Read Acts 8 again. What do you think Simon saw when the believers were filled with the Spirit?

We call our doctrine theology when it is no more than idealogy.

A handful of scripture pounded together to form a doctrine.

A doctrine that does not meld together with the whole of scripture

The PCI doctrine cannot account for all scriptures and seems unable to answer the simple questions TRFrance has put forth.

A doctrine that made one of leading bible schools ignore the book of Romans and not even teach Romans other than a handful of scriptures that seemed to fit with a tongues evidence salvation. Seemed to fit if you didn't read the rest of the book.

Let's stick with the Bible and not worry what a Bible school teaches.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You must agree that the epistles are written to the churches not to sinners

No, mizpeh, I cannot agree with you that it was not for sinners.

Romans 1:15-17 reads: "That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last...."


If the book of Romans was exclusively written for saved individuals, why is he going to Rome to preach a message that does not apply to them if the hearers are ALL in a saved condition. Furthermore, he explains what the gospel is, namely "the power of God for the salvation of everyone".

Besides, why would he have to state he is not ashamed of the gospel if his constituents are fellow brothers in the Lord? Surely, we must deduce that he is not ashamed to bring this message to the unbelievers!

And thirdly, since we know he is bringing the gospel to Rome (as he states), then it is fair to say that he is equipping and teaching the Roman brothers on how to share this gospel and in doing so, he is giving them the full package and not bits and pieces here and there as you suggest, mizpeh.


We need to stop invalidating Romans and the other epistles on the grounds that it is not for sinners....

[J-Roc]

Romans 2:4-6 "Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin? But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

Does this sound like an admonishment exclusively to believers? or is this for sinners? What Believer refuses to turn from their sin that awaits terrible punishment?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I might be posting this in the wrong area and if so please forgive me.
I understand some Pentecostal groups and some here on AFF ,believe one is saved and then filled with The Holy Ghost.Evidently a fair amount of OPs teach this.
Now this is asked in charity, but I do read scriptures that say without the Spirit of Christ you can't be His,or none of His Or I read verses that say it is by One Spirit we are baptized into one body.

Ok what is the difference in receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized with The Holy Ghost ?Isn't terms like being filled with The Holy Spirit and such synonymous terms for the same experience.
If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit how can one be regenerate with the Spirit of Christ ?

Also doesn't receiving the Spirit comes after repentance and not at repentance I understand.Because doesn't ACTS.2:37,38 teach that the Holy Ghost comes after repentance.

So can one be saved and not have the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit ?

I am open-minded and willing to hear other's views on this subject.

This is not my concern...

My concern is for all of those tongue talkers that have been baptized in Jesus' name, never misses a service at home church, keeps the whole law (read rules) and are still not saved.

Sadest note that of Saraph song.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

This is not my concern...

My concern is for all of those tongue talkers that have been baptized in Jesus' name, never misses a service at home church, keeps the whole law (read rules) and are still not saved.

Sadest note that of Saraph song.

What we do is so important and cannot be overlooked.

Paul had a concern to for those that KNOW, but do not DO. Actions/deeds are so underrated, IMO.

You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him. You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law. You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness. You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that in God’s law you have complete knowledge and truth. Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples? You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it. No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.” (Romans 2:17-24)


Paul puts emphasis on what we do (our deeds/actions)

"But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good..." (Romans 2:10)


"For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight..." (Romans 2:13)

[Joelel]

We find to receive him and believe is the same as being filled with the Holy Ghost.If a person is filled they receive the power to become a son of God when the Holy Ghost comes on them.

John.1
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Acts 1:
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

A true believer is born again.

1John.5
[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

What we do is so important and cannot be overlooked.

Paul had a concern to for those that KNOW, but do not DO. Actions/deeds are so underrated, IMO.

You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him. You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law. You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness. You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that in God’s law you have complete knowledge and truth. Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal? You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples? You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it. No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.” (Romans 2:17-24)


Paul puts emphasis on what we do (our deeds/actions)

"But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good..." (Romans 2:10)


"For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight..." (Romans 2:13)

Amen again...

Incidently, I want to KNOW him even as Paul so desired as well. But, I AM FAR MORE CONCERED that he knows me than I am of knowing HIM.

Many will claim in that day, "I know him." Many wll say, "Lord, Lord,"....oneness folk, boasting all their lives that they know the Lord and have the revelation of who he is but only to find out in the end that Jesus will say to them, "just get out of my sight you wicked ones, I don't know who you are or where you have come from." (Slightly paraphrased to fit todays coloquelism)

Imagine that. Got the Holy Ghost with the revelation of who He is, but on their way to hell just as straight as a Martin to her gourd. Bragging about KNOWING Him but all along, he does KNOW them.

God help us.

Your two step, your three steps and your four steps are not going to save you. The question is, did you take the ONLY step? Did you make Jesus YOUR LORD?