Drunk in the Spirit

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Note, how, in Acts 2:14, Simon Peter quickly addresses the mockers who accused the disciples, and called them "men of Judea". These were fellow Jews who did not live abroad in the Roman Empire. Only those who heard the heterais glossais were amazed, for the disciples spoke in their, that is, the ex-pats, native tongue. But for the Jews from Judea, who were present, hearing these unlearned, backwater Galilean disciples speak new languages for the first time, languages that neither they or the disciples knew, would have sounded like childish nonsense.

Ever hear a child speak in "tongues", though not the tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, but the babbling fake languages some kids are wont to make up in their head? It sounds silly, and immature, and to hear an adult do something that seems like that, would indeed incite an accusation and a mockery.

The fact is, by the time of Pentecost, the harvest for grapes either being recently completed, or perhaps not even begun, depending on when Pentecost fell (and how good the year was), no wine would have been sufficiently alcoholic by that point to make a person drunk. Therefore, the accusation must have meant something else.

More excellent points!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

People see whatever they want in the Bible to justify whatever it is they think they need.

THIS is what I believe to be the main source of error here. It's not forming a doctrine based on Scripture and putting it into practice. It's scrambling to find a couple of passages to text proof what people already believe based on personal experience or eye witnessing activity and wanting to validate it.

[good samaritan]

The sin in these things is in the excess and the problems thereby caused. fornication is excess in intimacy. Intimacy is designed for one man and women in marriage not multiple partners outside of a covenant relationship. Drunkeness is the excess of wine and causes problems because it takes away the voice of reason.

Being excessive spiritually is not wrong. The problem is that people want to be moderate in the spiritual things and excessive in the carnal things. Being drunk on alcohol causes us to lose reason, but being drunk on the Spirit causes us to gain reason (the voice of God).

I disagree with you concerning tongues. I do count all Christian faiths as believers, but I am doubtful of their salvation. I am not anyone's judge, but I am certain of what the scripture teaches concerning Holy Ghost baptism. Religion void of God's Spirit is form with no power. Many trinity churches believe that the Spirit baptism occurs at believing and it seems that is the category you fall into. The believers gathered in the upper room for the Spirit baptism. Why the supernatural occurrence if they already had the Holy Ghost when they believed long before the day of Pentecost.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

It's not necessary to conclude I think I'm more enlightened and I look down on you just because I disagree with the interpretation of Scripture. I want to be right just as much as anyone else. However I am not going to believe in something just because I was told, or just because someone says "this is what the Bible says", or because I grew up in it and in order to be accepted by the subculture, I have to go along and say "yes I agree" to everything I saw and or learned by virtue of being enmeshed in that subculture.

If you believe something you're going to communicate that. We argue here and debate and analyze and discuss. Sometimes it gets heated. But how can anyone arrive at the truth without examination and healthy debate? The Bereans studied the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Too many people just go along without thinking for themselves. If I'm wrong I want to know. If I'm in error I want to know.

My grandpa used to say "A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does."

What is order in public worship? I would say, based on the context of I Cor 14, Paul was addressing the chaos and abuse of the gifts of the Spirit, especially tongues in Corinth by saying essentially "we shouldn't be scaring off unbelievers among us causing them to leave our assemblies and say we are a bunch of mad, crazy weirdos". If an unbeliever attended a worship gathering and witnessed the things associated with "drunk in the Spirit" or people convulsing, or screaming, or going wild with flailing arms and herky-jerky movements, would they think "decent and in order" or would they be scared out of their minds?

How many of us brought friends to church from school or had relatives visit and the whole time we are praying "God PLEASE don't let Sister _______ or Brother _________ start _____________ and scaring my guests half to death"? There is worship that brings glory to God and attracts His Presence and is beautiful and is compelling to an unbeliever. There is another kind that glorifies the flesh and is rooted in self promotion and spiritual pride that brings zero glory to God. It's pretty easy to see the difference when it happens.

Thank you for clarifying for me just what it is we do here on the forum.

Now as for I Corinthians 14, I don't believe for a second that Paul was "saying essentially 'we shouldn't be scaring off unbelievers among us causing them to leave our assemblies and say we are a bunch of mad, crazy weirdos.'"

I don't see that at all. What I do see is the elder teaching the saints about the Gifts of the Spirit and the operation of those Gifts. There is confusion at times, and I have been in services when the pastor had to bring it back to order. But that had nothing whatsoever to do with worship and praise being unbiblical.

Dancing a jig during the sermon, to the point of disrupting the Word from the Lord being heard is incorrect, and should be absolutely prevented and dealt with. Speaking in tongues during an interpretation of tongues is not correct...I saw this happen in a service with Bro. Anthony Mangun. The message was given, someone was giving the interpretation, and someone else began to speak on tongues...AM kindly stopped her, and said, "The Lord is speaking."

That is order.

Here's the deal as I see it from my house...we are flesh, and everything we do is going to be in the flesh. It can't be helped, unless we are robots or ET, so in this emotional state called humanity it can very well be that someone just might take something, anything to the extreme. Peter preached so long that someone fell asleep and out of a window. But to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater is a mistake, in this old woman's opinion.

I know you wrote in an earlier post that "I don't care what you've seen or witnessed or experienced," but sorry...here is my experience from almost 65 years in and around the Apostolic Church...

Not ONE time have I seen anyone walk away and call us crazy or weird or too emotional...not ONE time. Now perhaps you have, but that has not been my experience.

My experience has allowed me to see the sinner or backslider convicted of their sins and find an altar of repentance. I saw a woman, whom I know personally, rise from her wheel chair completely healed of a broken back in a Pentecostal worship/praise service...no one laid hands on her. She just got up and danced before the Lord.

There are a lot of things church folks do, not just Pentecostals but Christendom in general, which are not biblical. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a preacher standing behind a "sacred desk," but they almost all do. I don't see Power Point and or wireless Lavalier mics in the Bible, but we use them nonetheless.

You know, I think it was kinda cool of God not to leave us with a detailed list of do's and don'ts...He tried that with the Hebrews, and we all know how that turned out. Individuals follow their own personality and emotional make up...the story goes that back in the day, Bro. Norris told the folks, "You want to shout? We have 40 acres out back for that!" I personally think that was silly, but not crazy or weird enough to disqualify his ministry or actions as out of line. That was his conviction as the pastor. By the same token, I don't think a pastor is off the wall crazy or weird if they encourage dancing and shouting.

So DB, this is my humble opinion and the bottom line...if you don't like a demonstration of worship/praise, than by all means, sit tight and don't bite. But for those who do, that's their choice.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The sin in these things is in the excess and the problems thereby caused. fornication is excess in intimacy. Intimacy is designed for one man and women in marriage not multiple partners outside of a covenant relationship. Drunkeness is the excess of wine and causes problems because it takes away the voice of reason.

Being excessive spiritually is not wrong. The problem is that people want to be moderate in the spiritual things and excessive in the carnal things. Being drunk on alcohol causes us to lose reason, but being drunk on the Spirit causes us to gain reason (the voice of God).

I disagree with you concerning tongues. I do count all Christian faiths as believers, but I am doubtful of their salvation. I am not anyone's judge, but I am certain of what the scripture teaches concerning Holy Ghost baptism. Religion void of God's Spirit is form with no power. Many trinity churches believe that the Spirit baptism occurs at believing and it seems that is the category you fall into. The believers gathered in the upper room for the Spirit baptism. Why the supernatural occurrence if they already had the Holy Ghost when they believed long before the day of Pentecost.

There's a difference between "born of the Spirit" and "baptized in the Spirit". The disciples had the Spirit before Pentecost (John 20:22). They were to tarry in Jerusalem for "power from on High". The language for born of the Spirit is "in you. Language for baptism of the Spirit in "upon you". John 1:12 "to all received him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." You are born of God, born of the Spirit at faith. You are baptized in the Spirit subsequent to being born again.

Jesus was born of the Spirit in Mary's womb. The Spirit was resident in Him from conception. Yet we see no manifestations of power and miracles until He is water baptized and the Spirit "came upon as a dove". Immediately He is led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil and when He returns the miracles start happening. Spiritual birth takes place at salvation, that is faith. Spiritual power takes place at Spirit baptism.

[good samaritan]

If spiritual birth takes place at salvation then we aren't born of the Spirit until we enter eternity and hear him say well done. Essentially salvation is a future event. I hear people say all the time I've got saved and I know what they mean. We truly aren't saved until we go on to our reward. A person can truly believe on God and also truly backslide.

So the Spirit baptism is not necessary for salvation?

[good samaritan]

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit

I supposed that since Spirit birth and Spirit baptism are 2 different events then those that are Spirit born are not part of the body?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Barb

Thank you for clarifying for me just what it is we do here on the forum.

Sarcasm noted.

Now as for I Corinthians 14, I don't believe for a second that Paul was "saying essentially 'we shouldn't be scaring off unbelievers among us causing them to leave our assemblies and say we are a bunch of mad, crazy weirdos.'"

I Corinthians 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

I Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

It seems to me he is greatly concerned about the confusion that was generated in the Corinthian church. The theme was personal edification should be kept in private. Public edification requires more discipline and order if everyone is to benefit---believer and unbeliever alike.

I wonder if people who convulse, scream, run around, flailing their arms---do that do that in the privacy of their prayer closet when it's just Jesus and them? Or does that only occur when there are onlookers? I think private worship and devotion should be more passionate and demonstrative than public worship. A husband and wife experience far greater passion and intimacy in private than they do in public. Unless of course they want to gross everybody out or go to jail. There's something uncomfortable about public displays of affection that cross a line. Why would it be any different with God?

I have witnessed a lot of very beautiful, genuine, sincere worship and I've witnessed a lot of showing off and self promoting, egotistical, hyped up carnal displays of affection that are more about the worshiper than the object of worship. Sadly, I must admit, being a part of the subculture, I caved into the power of suggestion and the atmosphere that unless you were going hog wild you weren't really worshiping.

Once at Bible school I got caught up in the peer pressure to lose all control and so I participated---on the heels of a week of Mangun family preaching and teaching---AM, Vesta, and GA. When I finished, I walked away feeling convicted that what I had done wasn't glorifying God but just me wanting acceptance. God convicted me and said, "while all this is going on, who is telling the lost about me?" I found a secret corner in the building and spent the rest of the time interceding for my lost friends.

Pentecostal culture doesn't really advocate "decent and order" worship---the wilder, crazier, out of control it is---the more godly it is. In my opinion and experience.

I don't see that at all. What I do see is the elder teaching the saints about the Gifts of the Spirit and the operation of those Gifts. There is confusion at times, and I have been in services when the pastor had to bring it back to order. But that had nothing whatsoever to do with worship and praise being unbiblical.

Dancing a jig during the sermon, to the point of disrupting the Word from the Lord being heard is incorrect, and should be absolutely prevented and dealt with. Speaking in tongues during an interpretation of tongues is not correct...I saw this happen in a service with Bro. Anthony Mangun. The message was given, someone was giving the interpretation, and someone else began to speak on tongues...AM kindly stopped her, and said, "The Lord is speaking."

That is order.

So you too have a definition of order. It's okay for you to define biblical order in church but you disparage me for having an opinion on order.

I just want to be biblical. I find no biblical evidence for many of the things that occur in Pentecostal/Spirit-Filled/Charismatic church services. Again, Google "holy laughter" or watch some other videos of non-apostolic Pentecostals and you will see some crazy stuff. There's one video of a guy diving in headfirst fully clothed into a baptistry.

Here's the deal as I see it from my house...we are flesh, and everything we do is going to be in the flesh. It can't be helped, unless we are robots or ET, so in this emotional state called humanity it can very well be that someone just might take something, anything to the extreme. Peter preached so long that someone fell asleep and out of a window. But to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater is a mistake, in this old woman's opinion.

Actually it was Paul preaching when the young man fell out of the window. I agree with you with the idea that we worship in our flesh. This idea of "in the spirit" means we lose all self-control, become some kind of a puppet on a string for God to sling us around is not biblical. I also agree that human beings have a b I also agree that human beings have a bent towards excess. That is why it's important to disciple and teach new believers what the Bible says about public worship. Growing up the only instructions we got were that liberty in the Holy Ghost meant no restrictions. Of course the Bible doesn't teach that.

I know you wrote in an earlier post that "I don't care what you've seen or witnessed or experienced," but sorry...here is my experience from almost 65 years in and around the Apostolic Church...

I said that because you could go to a one God Jesus name apostolic Church in West Virginia, Kentucky, Georgia, or Alabama and witness people passing around venomous serpents and drinking poison out of mason jars and see that nothing happens to them and walk away concluding, if you're simply going to base it on what you saw with your own eyes and experiences, that their theology is sound.

The point I'm making is doctrine needs to be biblically-based, not rooted in experiences or anecdotal evidence.

Not ONE time have I seen anyone walk away and call us crazy or weird or too emotional...not ONE time. Now perhaps you have, but that has not been my experience.

I have indeed seen and heard plenty of unbelievers either express how the church service scared them, Or that the reputation of my church was strange or crazy.

My experience has allowed me to see the sinner or backslider convicted of their sins and find an altar of repentance. I saw a woman, whom I know personally, rise from her wheel chair completely healed of a broken back in a Pentecostal worship/praise service...no one laid hands on her. She just got up and danced before the Lord.

I'm not saying that everything I witnessed or experienced was phony, A lot of genuine and sincere things happened. I believe in miracles I believe in the supernatural. But if something is not biblical I'm not going to accept it hook line and sinker.

There are a lot of things church folks do, not just Pentecostals but Christendom in general, which are not biblical. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a preacher standing behind a "sacred desk," but they almost all do. I don't see Power Point and or wireless Lavalier mics in the Bible, but we use them nonetheless.

I understand and agree in principle, but I don't think outsiders are going to say "those folks are crazy because they use pulpits and wireless microphones!

You know, I think it was kinda cool of God not to leave us with a detailed list of do's and don'ts...He tried that with the Hebrews, and we all know how that turned out. Individuals follow their own personality and emotional make up...the story goes that back in the day, Bro. Norris told the folks, "You want to shout? We have 40 acres out back for that!" I personally think that was silly, but not crazy or weird enough to disqualify his ministry or actions as out of line. That was his conviction as the pastor. By the same token, I don't think a pastor is off the wall crazy or weird if they encourage dancing and shouting.

So DB, this is my humble opinion and the bottom line...if you don't like a demonstration of worship/praise, than by all means, sit tight and don't bite. But for those who do, that's their choice.

I'm all for diversity in the Body. That's why I choose not to be a Pentecostal as an identity. There will be plenty of Pentecostals in heaven. They just won't be he only ones.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Brethren, the Greek word for "new wine" as seen in Acts 2:13, in the accusation made by those who mocked the disciples, is gleukos, hence our word "glucose", and it means UNFERMENTED grape juice, meaning incapable of causing drunkenness, that is to say, the sweet juice or must of a grape when it's first squeezed.

The only reason lexicons, commentators, or interpreters say otherwise is because they are guilty of eisogesis, assuming the accusation made against the disciples meant the people so accusing them thought they were under the influence of alcoholic wine (i.e acting as if drunk).

Let us rightly divide the Word of Truth, my friends.

The ministry is to be above reproach. The ministry is to not give offense in anything. God would not, and so, does not, inspire in His people an activity or response that would liken His people to those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

To say that God causes people to act as if they are drunk on alcohol during their worship would be like saying God causes people to act as if they are fornicating during their worship.

1 Corinthians 5:11,



1 Corinthians 6:9-10,



Galatians 5:19-21,



Friends, God isn't inspiring reactions to His presence that would cause anyone to think they were anything but sober (be sober-minded, anyone???). To do so would besmirch Himself and make the unlearned think His people were actually drunk on literal alcohol. Such an accusation would bring a shame to Him and to His people.

It is clear from the Greek that the accusation of being drunk on new, or un-fermented wine had nothing to do with being drunk on alcohol, as if they were in an upper tavern instead of an upper room.

The accusation was simply regarding hearing these backwater Galileans speak languages that they obviously had never learned. Ever hear someone speak a new language for the first time? Anyone who has or is studying a second language will tell you their first attempts at speaking come off sounding childish (become like little children to inherit the Kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit???).

And guess what? Children in the old world were given the super sweet, un-fermented wine!

The accusation against the disciples was not that they were falling over each other singing rowdy ballads, stumbling into each other and falling down stairs. It was that they sounded like little children trying to speak a second language. And guess what? The new or sweet wine that children were allowed to drink was massively full of sugar (hence our word glucose) and kids and sugar make for some pretty hyperactive people, who talk fast.

Then Peter gets up and tells them that the disciples are not drunk, as they had supposed, meaning, they weren't full of sugary-sweet new wine, acting like children trying to speak a second language; rather this was the promise of God the Father through the prophet Joel, that He would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Nowhere in the Joel prophecy does it state that God would cause anyone to act in a drunken manner. Therefore, in order for Acts 2:4 to be a fulfillment of Joel 2:28, acting as if drunken CANNOT be a part of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

I agree.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

It's not necessary to conclude I think I'm more enlightened and I look down on you just because I disagree with the interpretation of Scripture. I want to be right just as much as anyone else. However I am not going to believe in something just because I was told, or just because someone says "this is what the Bible says", or because I grew up in it and in order to be accepted by the subculture, I have to go along and say "yes I agree" to everything I saw and or learned by virtue of being enmeshed in that subculture.

If you believe something you're going to communicate that. We argue here and debate and analyze and discuss. Sometimes it gets heated. But how can anyone arrive at the truth without examination and healthy debate? The Bereans studied the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Too many people just go along without thinking for themselves. If I'm wrong I want to know. If I'm in error I want to know.

My grandpa used to say "A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does."

What is order in public worship? I would say, based on the context of I Cor 14, Paul was addressing the chaos and abuse of the gifts of the Spirit, especially tongues in Corinth by saying essentially "we shouldn't be scaring off unbelievers among us causing them to leave our assemblies and say we are a bunch of mad, crazy weirdos". If an unbeliever attended a worship gathering and witnessed the things associated with "drunk in the Spirit" or people convulsing, or screaming, or going wild with flailing arms and herky-jerky movements, would they think "decent and in order" or would they be scared out of their minds?

How many of us brought friends to church from school or had relatives visit and the whole time we are praying "God PLEASE don't let Sister _______ or Brother _________ start _____________ and scaring my guests half to death"? There is worship that brings glory to God and attracts His Presence and is beautiful and is compelling to an unbeliever. There is another kind that glorifies the flesh and is rooted in self promotion and spiritual pride that brings zero glory to God. It's pretty easy to see the difference when it happens.

This is an excellent post that reflects my perspective and attitude when questioning or disagreeing with things in old time Oneness Pentecost.

Any religious sect with doctrinal and cultural distinctives that set it apart from the larger body of believers in their overall belief system (OP's within Christianity as a whole) tend to be very reactionary to any questioning of their distinctives. Those doing so. in particular former members, are automatically ascribed to have ill movtives. They are "looking down on" or "mocking" in the minds of the sect members. It seems it can never be that they have honest differences in belief.

Now granted some present their differences in a offensive manner and many of you know that has been my complaint about some feelow "libs" on AFF. A lib being offensive is as offensive as a ultra con being so!