House Churches: What are your thoughts?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

So far I'm seeing a lean toward being weak on doctrine and oversight in the house church model.

Good grief. Where do you get these accusations from?

Is what is lined out in the Bible not enough?

Was God short in his layout of leadership and accountability?

Why is someone weak just because they don't want to have all of these man made add on's?

[ChristopherHall]

Were churches accountable to the Jerusalem council? Also I wish the Bible were enough. But all one has to do is examine the landscape of Christianity and see that people can read the Bible and not agree as to what it means. A statement of faith would only secure the fundamental teachings of a church so there isn't any debate about the fundamentals. For example the Oneness of God and Salvation.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Were churches accountable to the Jerusalem council?

The churches were accountable to the apostles, elders, pastors etc.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Also I wish the Bible were enough.

Wow... what an inconceivable statement.

[ChristopherHall]

Statement in context:

Also I wish the Bible were enough. But all one has to do is examine the landscape of Christianity and see that people can read the Bible and not agree as to what it means. A statement of faith would only secure the fundamental teachings of a church so there isn't any debate about the fundamentals. For example the Oneness of God and Salvation.

Can you show me how simply reading the Bible has unified everyone who calls themselves Christian on the planet under a single doctrine and administration?

It takes a degree of anointing to properly interpret Scripture. Foundational teachings of the faith should be stated so as to avoid confusion or division within the local assembly.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The churches were accountable to the apostles, elders, pastors etc.

Here are the resolutions of the first Apostolic general conference conducted by the council in Jerusalem:

"22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." - Acts 15:22-29

Notice they provided oversight and teaching to the church at large.

[dizzyde]

Does anyone but me feel like this thread was started with some kind of unknown ulterior motive?

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

Does anyone but me feel like this thread was started with some kind of unknown ulterior motive?

I wanted to discuss house churching because I find it fascinating. I still do. I think I'd prefer it over the traditional model used today. However, in the course of the conversation it became evident that there was a danger of being soft on doctrine and leadership.

I don't mind the idea of a church choosing not to have a statement of faith...I just see some potential for departure from truth, especially if services are open for all to participate and teach as in a biblical church service. My most serious issue was the implication that having a statement of faith was somehow shortchanging the purpose of the Bible. The only other issue I saw was that it was implied that because I would advocate for licensing and being a part of an extended body beyond the local assembly that somehow one was departing from Scripture. As we have seen...elders were charged to teach sound doctrine. That means they are charged with clarifying the fundamental teachings of Scripture. We also see that each house church in the Bible was interconnected with the body of Christ at large...and only those of like Christian faith, not just anyone who believed anything.

No agenda, just a bump in the road along the way.

[nathan_slatter]

Frankly, I get tired of the discussion. Too many people have their own concepts of what they want to read into whatever they wish to read and call everyone else relativists proclaiming that only their interpretation is the correct one -- just ask them.

The fact is that one can proof text all one wants an never do anything more than create their own following with which to lead and control. This is why people are so skeptical these days (dragging in the magic conversation). There are so many ways to read a single passage and any one of them MAY be correct. And the fact is that many times we can use various "proof texts" to prove exactly what we want it to prove. And, frankly, people are sick of it. Why do you have people leaving the modern churches in droves? It is because the church people don't really care about people! All they care about is their own interpretation (which they label doctrine) and they crucify anyone who doesn't conform to their specific idea and concept of it.

The world today is sick of the ........ that is spewed from mouths these days because they see the church preach love out of one side of the mouth and commit spiritual abortion/murder out of the other. Like Robertson/Falwell proclaiming that 9/11 and Katrina was due to the "sin" of America -- then Robertson, just this week, endorsing one of the more morally inept Presidential candidates in the race (Guilianni ) -- mind boggling and hypocritical. That is why people are leaving the so-call "real" model of Sunday morning services found in a building.

I feel that church people hate the idea of authenticity but it is exactly what the world would like to see. People who are real. Not this play pretty nice patty cake jesus freak who can't speak a real language but rather chooses to dictate with some weird dialect (and I'm not talking about speaking in tongues either) brought about by a culture that looses its influence on the world because it is too holy to actually engage in the world. I find it amazing that Jesus worked more often in the presence of the sinners, the publicans, the outcasts and when he was among the church folk -- that was when he was found guilty of not being God, that was when he was angry about the misuse of the law and the incapability for people to follow the simple complexities of Loving God -- and your neighbors as yourself". Yet the church, consistently refuses to engage. Requiring the "sinners" to come over to "our" side before really giving out the love. Jesus gave himself for all -- whether they accepted his gift or not. Who are we to require any more than Jesus himself required? Has our doctrines and theologies become more of a God to us than the life of Jesus? We love them.. as long as they change quick enough to make our numbers grow for the year.

I've heard it said that witnessing is all about numbers.. the more no's you get through, the quicker the yes's show up -- suddenly Jesus becomes a vacuum cleaner that we show up, bother people with our pretentiousness and exaggeration's, clean their carpet and tell them they aren't good enough unless they have this vacuum. Jesus doesn't need selling -- he's quite enough on his own. But we have to put our humanity on true spirituality to help it out... and that's why people are leaving by the droves.

But what do I know... and who am I to say such things...

Originally Posted by nathan_slatter

Frankly, I get tired of the discussion. Too many people have their own concepts of what they want to read into whatever they wish to read and call everyone else relativists proclaiming that only their interpretation is the correct one -- just ask them.

The fact is that one can proof text all one wants an never do anything more than create their own following with which to lead and control. This is why people are so skeptical these days (dragging in the magic conversation). There are so many ways to read a single passage and any one of them MAY be correct. And the fact is that many times we can use various "proof texts" to prove exactly what we want it to prove. And, frankly, people are sick of it. Why do you have people leaving the modern churches in droves? It is because the church people don't really care about people! All they care about is their own interpretation (which they label doctrine) and they crucify anyone who doesn't conform to their specific idea and concept of it.

The world today is sick of the ........ that is spewed from mouths these days because they see the church preach love out of one side of the mouth and commit spiritual abortion/murder out of the other. Like Robertson/Falwell proclaiming that 9/11 and Katrina was due to the "sin" of America -- then Robertson, just this week, endorsing one of the more morally inept Presidential candidates in the race (Guilianni ) -- mind boggling and hypocritical. That is why people are leaving the so-call "real" model of Sunday morning services found in a building.

I feel that church people hate the idea of authenticity but it is exactly what the world would like to see. People who are real. Not this play pretty nice patty cake jesus freak who can't speak a real language but rather chooses to dictate with some weird dialect (and I'm not talking about speaking in tongues either) brought about by a culture that looses its influence on the world because it is too holy to actually engage in the world. I find it amazing that Jesus worked more often in the presence of the sinners, the publicans, the outcasts and when he was among the church folk -- that was when he was found guilty of not being God, that was when he was angry about the misuse of the law and the incapability for people to follow the simple complexities of Loving God -- and your neighbors as yourself". Yet the church, consistently refuses to engage. Requiring the "sinners" to come over to "our" side before really giving out the love. Jesus gave himself for all -- whether they accepted his gift or not. Who are we to require any less? Has our doctrines and theologies become more of a God to us than the life of Jesus? We love them.. as long as they change quick enough to make our numbers grow for the year.

I've heard it said that witnessing is all about numbers.. the more no's you get through, the quicker the yes's show up -- suddenly Jesus becomes a vacuum cleaner that we show up, bother people with our pretentiousness and exaggeration's, clean their carpet and tell them they aren't good enough unless they have this vacuum. Jesus doesn't need selling -- he's quite enough on his own. But we have to put our humanity on true spirituality to help it out... and that's why people are leaving by the droves.

But what do I know... and who am I to say such things...

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by nathan_slatter

Frankly, I get tired of the discussion. Too many people have their own concepts of what they want to read into whatever they wish to read and call everyone else relativists proclaiming that only their interpretation is the correct one -- just ask them.

The fact is that one can proof text all one wants an never do anything more than create their own following with which to lead and control. This is why people are so skeptical these days (dragging in the magic conversation). There are so many ways to read a single passage and any one of them MAY be correct. And the fact is that many times we can use various "proof texts" to prove exactly what we want it to prove. And, frankly, people are sick of it. Why do you have people leaving the modern churches in droves? It is because the church people don't really care about people! All they care about is their own interpretation (which they label doctrine) and they crucify anyone who doesn't conform to their specific idea and concept of it.

The world today is sick of the ........ that is spewed from mouths these days because they see the church preach love out of one side of the mouth and commit spiritual abortion/murder out of the other. Like Robertson/Falwell proclaiming that 9/11 and Katrina was due to the "sin" of America -- then Robertson, just this week, endorsing one of the more morally inept Presidential candidates in the race (Guilianni ) -- mind boggling and hypocritical. That is why people are leaving the so-call "real" model of Sunday morning services found in a building.

I feel that church people hate the idea of authenticity but it is exactly what the world would like to see. People who are real. Not this play pretty nice patty cake jesus freak who can't speak a real language but rather chooses to dictate with some weird dialect (and I'm not talking about speaking in tongues either) brought about by a culture that looses its influence on the world because it is too holy to actually engage in the world. I find it amazing that Jesus worked more often in the presence of the sinners, the publicans, the outcasts and when he was among the church folk -- that was when he was found guilty of not being God, that was when he was angry about the misuse of the law and the incapability for people to follow the simple complexities of Loving God -- and your neighbors as yourself". Yet the church, consistently refuses to engage. Requiring the "sinners" to come over to "our" side before really giving out the love. Jesus gave himself for all -- whether they accepted his gift or not. Who are we to require any more than Jesus himself required? Has our doctrines and theologies become more of a God to us than the life of Jesus? We love them.. as long as they change quick enough to make our numbers grow for the year.

I've heard it said that witnessing is all about numbers.. the more no's you get through, the quicker the yes's show up -- suddenly Jesus becomes a vacuum cleaner that we show up, bother people with our pretentiousness and exaggeration's, clean their carpet and tell them they aren't good enough unless they have this vacuum. Jesus doesn't need selling -- he's quite enough on his own. But we have to put our humanity on true spirituality to help it out... and that's why people are leaving by the droves.

But what do I know... and who am I to say such things...

Good Ole Nate.

Never one to mince words.

You, sir... have caught me here quibbling with the <1% while the 99+% go hungry.

Your post has caught me right between the eyes and reminded me of the song I heard years ago which said "We've got to seek out the dry and arid places and stop this hauling water to the sea".

I would have done well to walk away from this thread a long time ago. (I am seriously considering walking away from forums all together. It would be the wiser choice if I can find the wherewithal to do it.)

I think... should I decide to find out what is needed and not needed to reach this world... I probably won't take it from the tempest in a tea pot that is our current woefully inadequate form of "church".

Thanks again for the reality check.