The Rev Dr Strange says AFF ees Hairy Tics!

[Sister Alvear]

may the good Lord help us all to be Christians...

[brianmidwest]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

So, any drinking of alcoholic beverages is a sin?

You could take that mental jump but it would be bypassing the intent. The problem with the choices we make in life are much less about what we are doing and much more about why we are doing it.

As child I learned that by spinning in circles made me dizzy. Not a problem for a 7 year old. But if an adult chooses to use a chemical substance, an addictive behavior, or spinning in circles in order to acheive the "pleasure" of altering their state of understanding and thereby avoid the truth and responsibiltiy of reality, then I think that there is a problem with that line of thinking and behavior.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by brianmidwest

You could take that mental jump but it would be bypassing the intent. The problem with the choices we make in life are much less about what we are doing and much more about why we are doing it.

As child I learned that by spinning in circles made me dizzy. Not a problem for a 7 year old. But if an adult chooses to use a chemical substance, an addictive behavior, or spinning in circles in order to acheive the "pleasure" of altering their state of understanding and thereby avoid the truth and responsibiltiy of reality, then I think that there is a problem with that line of thinking and behavior.

Not sure exactly what you're saying, but if a person is drinking to get drunk, then I agree there are other heart issues at bay. However, emphasizing drinking itself as a sin is not our position to make. The attitude toward alcohol varies by region of the country too. The Bible Belt would abhor Christian drinking, or have a more cynical view of it. The Northeast, it may be a different story. The Northwest, same thing. The culture of pubs, wineries, etc make alcohol a popular venue and treat for locals. Many include a moderate amount of alcohol in their life and certainly are not known as drunkards.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by brianmidwest

The scripture speaks directly to anything that brings your mind into an altered state.

Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I would also cite the admonition from Proverbs "For if they drink, they may forget the law," (Proverbs 31:5 NLT)

And

"Who has anguish? Who has sorrow? Who is always fighting? Who is always complaining? Who has unnecessary bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? It is the one who spends long hours in taverns, trying out new drinks," (Proverbs 23:29-30)

Additionally, I would point out the medical research to proves the addictive nature of drugs. Whether the drug is legal or not, if it is taken to change alter one's senses as a recreational activity, it is wrong.

What's in view in all these passages are drunkards.

There is not one iota of scripture that prohibits drinking alcohol and you know it. In fact, I have an example in scripture where Jehovah tells these people to take their tithe, not to the storehouse because they are so far away, but to have a party, by drinks, etc. And before you go into the "wine and liquor in that day were baby juice" please do some research from someone other than a person trying to prove a preconceived theory. Drunkenness, like today, was a part of their society and it wasn't because they drank grape juice all the time.

Nyquil and Advil PM's "alter my state" too. Again, we are moving away from Gospel heart issues and going to a list of prohibitions. It's just embedded elder brother code in all of us.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by The Kid

He gave me this quote the other day from the pastor over the pulpit, "If that old grizzly at home decides he doesn't want to line up and be part of the body of Christ, this church will be your husband." I almost fell out of my chair.

OMW!

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

OMW!

Yea, it had less to do with anything sexual, or illicit, and more to do with the audacity of the church to believe it can be all things to all people and especially those with deficits in their lives. Really, I wouldn't expect anything less from any pastor who has given his entire life and career to a church movement.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

OMW!

Doesn't really line up with the Word of God, does it?

[brianmidwest]

"Nyquil and Advil PM's "alter my state" too. Again, we are moving away from Gospel heart issues and going to a list of prohibitions. It's just embedded elder brother code in all of us."

Any clinician worth his salt would tell you that if you are taking Nyquil or Advil pms to gain an altered state of consciousness, that you my friend are misusing them. What you have totally bypassed is the question of "is there ever an appropriate use for alcohol?" And surely there could be....if you where having surgery and there were no other pain killers, if you needed an antiseptic, and other medicinal uses (and yes Nyquil contains a LARGE dose of alcohol). In those cases you are not misusing any product, the problem isn't with the product, it is with the mindset of escapism.
Even strictly humanistic thinking acknowledges the Pleasure/Reality Principle (Freud). Using anything to escape reality is not mentally or spiritually healthy. Period.

[Truthseeker]

It's like anything else, excess is the problem. Some use food to self medicate emotional issues, but doesn't food is sin. Same with wine.

[Walks_in_islam]

If Jesus made some (excellent at that) wine for a wedding where does that leave those who are christian and teach a relationship between wine and salvation?

Is it hairy-tickle to discuss teachings and actions of Jesus now?

You go back to the closed site and declare that I said that the teachings of those well-fed, pudgy pharisees who are stuffing their wallets "in Jesus name" are the teachings of false prophets.

In the Talmud, which contains the oral traditions of Judaism from about 200 BC to AD 200, there are several tractates in which the mixture of water and wine is discussed. One tractate (Shabbath 77a) states that wine that does not carry three parts water is not wine. The normal mixture is said to consist of two parts water to one part wine. In a most important reference (Pesahim 108b) it is stated that the four cups every Jew was to drink during the Passover ritual were to be mixed in a ratio of three parts water to one part wine. From this we can conclude with a fair degree of certainty that the fruit of the vine used at the institution of the Lord's Supper was a mixture of three parts water to one part wine. In another Jewish reference from around 60 BC, we read, "It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one's enjoyment" (II Maccabees 15:39)