House Churches: What are your thoughts?

[ChristopherHall]

I have to say the above were wonderful posts. Very convicting and thought provoking. Maybe it’s the way some of us have been raised in the Lord. For example, I’ll put myself on the block…I was raised to value doctrinal truth and taught that departure from the truth could lead to errors that might cause one to loose their soul. So I’ve been taught that some truths should be protected and cherished. Truths like the oneness of God and full Acts 2:38 salvation. I’ve grown open minded in regards to modesty standards, because in all honesty the Bible isn’t as strict as some of us are. Many of us have also had much hardship with non-Apostolic family members. Many of us have been disowned and sacrificed a lot because we have embraced the truths of Oneness or full Acts 2:38 salvation. I think my fear is loosing those truths that so many of us have endured much pain to embrace. I know Jesus said he had come to bring a sword and that families would be at variance with one another...but for some of us it has been really hard. Many of us have sacrificed or endured a lot to believe the Apostolic truths.

So, I guess my statements are primarily about protecting what I’ve been taught are essential truths. I guess a good question I have would be…how does one protect the “essentials” in a house church environment? It may seem obvious to some, but I’m not as knowledgeable on it as they are. From what I’ve read, and what I’ve personally come to believe, in a biblical church there isn’t a single elder ruling everyone, there are elders (plural) serving the body together; teaching and ministering. Also services aren’t listening to one person’s monologue…but rather an interactive experience where two or three may bring a word, teaching, testimony, or admonition before the body. In a more open meeting…how would we protect from errant teachings? I don’t mean this as an antagonistic question, I’m sincere. Maybe some know how to deal with this better than I do. I’m here to learn from you if you know. My fear is that without a clear definition of the essentials…some of sincere heart may sincerely error on them…and without a definitive statement how is one qualified to lovingly correct the error? My concern is that a house church where the essentials aren’t defined may find itself with some members being Trinitarian, some Oneness, some Arian, some believing in eternal security, some believing in Armenianism. I guess a body like that could agree to disagree…but it may become ripe for a heated division without a final and authoritive stand.

Let me present a hypothetical house church service where my concern becomes a reality. Maybe I can get some opinions on different angles on it.

Let’s say my wife and I allowed the Lord to begin His work in our home. We’ve had some very powerful services and I typically bring a lesson, word, teaching, or admonishment to the group. But before I do I allow one or two others to bring what God has laid on their hearts too. Sometimes what they bring is very powerful and God moves so I wait to bring what I have and allow God to move as he desires. One brother has really ministered to the group and has won their hearts and shows signs of having a real call on his life. When I say he has “won their hearts” I see it as a good thing, because if God is going to elevate him to being an elder he will have to be loved from both those within and without. So one night we meet and after worship I ask if God has laid anything upon anyone’s heart to allow the body to minister to each other. This dear brother raises his hand and I give him the floor. His message begins powerfully and is very good…however...in the process he’s teaching the fundamental elements of Trinitarianism and referring to the “Eternal Son”. Many in the group are offering affirmation or amens…but being a Oneness Apostolic, I’m concerned that these teachings will become seeds that will lead many astray from the truth of God’s Oneness in Christ Jesus. How do I handle this? Do I interrupt him and correct his teaching? Do I wait until he is finished and begin a loving lesson correcting some of what he said? What do I do when he raises a few questions, “But Bro. Hall…what about this verse….?” A wonderful couple in the group asks, “Wait, are you saying we don’t believe in the Trinity?” How do I lovingly correct our mistaken brother and prevent some of his teaching from effecting the less knowledgeable in the group? What about the couple who didn’t know we didn’t believe in the Trinity? Were they entitled to know what we believed before investing their time and emotions in this fellowship group?

I’m only asking sincere questions that I’ve never heard addressed from a house churching perspective. Seeing that this model appeals to me, I want to know how to help keep the assembly both free, loving, and in the truth.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. God bless.

Define the essentials. We started and allowed Christian friends to come on over. It was a classic train wreck Godhead battle royal, in love of course. This is why unity is so important.

Now then, if a trinitarian wants to come anywise, show him the Truth in love. It's more than likely that they simply believe what they've been told all of their lives.

If they are new to house church meetings then their paradigm shift is in swing anyway. How easy it is to illustrate how the trinity and contemporary church models have many of the same roots during the same time period. Teach it all and let God sort it out. If they are hungry for Truth then they will find it. God has obviously led them to you, rest in that.

[nathan_slatter]

Originally Posted by RD Cox

Define the essentials. We started and allowed Christian friends to come on over. It was a classic train wreck Godhead battle royal, in love of course. This is why unity is so important.

Now then, if a trinitarian wants to come anywise, show him the Truth in love. It's more than likely that they simply believe what they've been told all of their lives.

If they are new to house church meetings then their paradigm shift is in swing anyway. How easy it is to illustrate how the trinity and contemporary church models have many of the same roots during the same time period. Teach it all and let God sort it out. If they are hungry for Truth then they will find it. God has obviously led them to you, rest in that.

Yeah -- I tend to agree with this. If it is Truth it will stand -- if it isn't it won't...

[ChristopherHall]

I’d say the real biggies would be Oneness, Salvation (Acts 2:38), love (God and one’s neighbor), and the bodily return of Christ. Everything else can, and should, take time to teach and apply. One many of the peripherals there’s some room for different opinions and personal convictions but basic principles should apply, as with Christian modesty for example.

I’m Apostolic through and through and I believe whole heartedly in Apostolic doctrine and teaching. I just think the way we do church isn’t the way it was done in the Bible and is actually a hindrance to real fellowship in the body. Many aren’t aware of the growing impact of the Emergent Church movement in house churching. I’d be afraid that the group would drift into mainstream Evangelical teaching or Emergent Church teaching without clearly defined essentials. The essentials aren’t to replace the Bible. They are only to clarify what essential teachings of the Bible are foundational to help prevent drifting.

I’ve really reflected on some of the things I’ve said here and prayed about it. I think I’d like to reconsider the value of being licensed by an organization. Sure there are some pros…but then there are cons too. For example ministerial dues can be bothersome not to mention it seems so many organizations are passing resolutions that are increasingly micromanaging minister’s lives. Not to mention the increasingly burdensome requirements of maintaining such licensing. So independent licensing would most likely be best in my opinion after more reflection.

I had mentioned a “statement of faith” earlier. Here’s an example of a statement of faith that I really like personally. If God ever called me to open my home right now to house church I’d consider something very much like this:

Foundational Scriptures

"Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:46-49).

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12)

"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9).

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).

"As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" (I Timothy 1:3).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16).


The Bible
The Bible is the inspired Word of God, giving a true history of the creation of heaven, earth, and humanity and containing a correct prophecy of the ages to come regarding heaven, earth, and the destiny of humanity. Moreover, there is no salvation outside of what is taught in its pages.

God
There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the creator of heaven and earth, and of all living beings. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the son (Savior), and as the Holy Ghost (indwelling Spirit).

Father
God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of all humanity by creation.
He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6).
There was no God formed before Him; neither shall be there any after Him (Isaiah 43:10).

Son
Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit (Matthew 1:23). Jesus is the Christ (Matthew 16:16); the creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matthew 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16);He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8);the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
It took shedding of blood for the remission of the sins of the world (Hebrews 9:22), but God the Father was a Spirit and had no blood to shed. Thus He prepared a body of flesh and blood (Hebrews 10:5)and came to earth as a man in order to save us, for in Isaiah 43:11 He said, "Beside me there is no Saviour." When He came in flesh the angels sang, "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11).

Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost is not a third person in the Godhead, but rather the Spirit of God (the Creator), the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. The Holy Ghost comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of everyone who believes and obeys the gospel, as the comforter, Sustainer, and keeper (John 14:16-26; Romans 8:9-11).

Sin
Sin is the transgression of the law, or commandments of God (I John 3:4). The guilt of sin has fallen upon all humanity from Adam until now (Romans 3:23). The wages of sin is eternal death (Romans 6:23; Revelation 20:14) to all those who refuse to accept salvation as set forth in the Word of God.

Salvation
Salvation consists of deliverance from all sin and unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus Christ. The New Testament experience of salvation consists of repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost, after which the Christian is to live a godly life (Acts 2:36-41).

Water Baptism
Water baptism is an essential part of New Testament salvation and not merely a symbolic ritual. It is part of entering into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ), and therefore, it is not merely a part of local church membership. (See John 3:5; Galatians 3:27).

Mode of Baptism
Water baptism is to be administered only by immersion. Paul said, "We are buried with him [Jesus Christ] by baptism (Romans 6:4; see Colossians 2:12), Jesus came up "out of the water" (Mark 1:10), and Philip and the eunuch went down "into the water" and came up "out of the water" (Acts 8:38-39).
Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection are applied to our lives when we experience New Testament salvation: "Repent [death to sin], and be baptized [burial] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [resurrection]." (See Acts 2:38; Romans 6:1-7; 8:2).
Sprinkling, pouring, or infant baptism of any kind cannot be substantiated by the Word of God, but are only human traditions.

To be continued:

[ChristopherHall]

Continued:

Formula for Baptism
The name in which baptism is administered is vitally important, and this name is Jesus.
Jesus' last command to His disciples was, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19). We should notice that He said name (singular) not names. As previously explained, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not names of separate persons, but titles of positions held by God. An angelic announcement revealed God's saving name in the New Testament: "She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).
The apostles understood that Jesus was the name to use at baptism, and from the day that the church of God was established (the Day of Pentecost) until the end of their ministry, they baptized all nations (Jews--Acts 8:16; Gentiles--Acts 19:5) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In fact, Jesus is the only name given for our salvation. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Baptism of the Holy Ghost
The baptism of the Holy Ghost is the birth of the Spirit (John 3:5). This spiritual baptism is necessary to put someone into the kingdom of God (God's church, the bride of Christ) and is evidenced by speaking in other tongues (other languages) as the Spirit of God give utterance.
It was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28-29) and Isaiah (Isaiah 28:11), foretold by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11), purchased by the blood of Jesus, and promised by Him to His disciples (John 14:26; 15:16). The Holy Ghost was first poured out on the Day of Pentecost upon the Jews (Acts 2:1-4), then upon the Samaritans (Acts 8:17), and later upon the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-46; 19:6). "The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

Tongues
1. Speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance is the manifestation God has given as the definite, indisputable, supernatural witness or sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6).
It was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah as the rest and the refreshing (Isaiah 28:11-12), foretold by Jesus as a sign that would follow believers of the gospel (Mark 16:17), and experience by Jews and Gentiles alike.
2. The gift of "divers kinds of tongues," mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 12:1-12 and concerning which he gave regulations in I Corinthians 14:1-40, is given by both for self-edification (I Corinthians 14:4) and for the edification of the church (I Corinthians 14:27-28).
In church meetings the gift of tongues is used to give a public message, and it is to be interpreted. Since this gift can be misused in public, it needs proper regulation (I Corinthians 14:23-28). Not all believers exercise the gift of tongues, which is different in function from tongues given by God as the initial witness of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Paul said, "Forbid not to speak with tongues" (I Corinthians 14:39) and "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (I Corinthians 14:8). Who dares to teach or preach to the contrary?
Speaking in tongues means speaking miraculously in a language unknown to the speaker, as the Spirit gives utterance. Tongues can be classified in two ways, according to function: (1)speaking in other tongues as the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and (2)the gift of tongues as mentioned in I Corinthians.

Holiness
After we are saved from sin, we are commanded, "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).
We are commanded to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12) and warned that without holiness no one shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
We must present ourselves as holy unto God (Romans 12:1), cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit (II Corinthians 7:1), and separate ourselves from all worldliness (James 4:4).
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (I Peter 4:18).
No one can live a holy life by his own power, but only through the Holy Spirit. "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" (Acts 1:8).

Deliverance
Nearly two thousand years ago Jesus came to the help of suffering humanity, working miracles of healing the sick and casting out demons. Throughout the three and a half years of His earthly ministry, this never changed (Mark 1:26; Mark 5:13; Luke 9:42; Matthew 4:24; Matthew 8:16; Mark 1:34).
In the book of Acts, the Apostles continued to follow the example set by Jesus and expelled many evil and unclean spirits whenever the situation called for it (Acts 5:16; Acts 8:7).
Today, part of our commission is to continue this ministry of deliverance, for the Lord Jesus said that "these signs shall follow those who believe; In my name they will cast out demons..." (Mark 16:17). This authority was not reserved for just a small group of believers, it was meant for all believers to carry out this mission of service as set forth in the holy scriptures.

Divine Healing
God has made Himself known through the ages by miraculous healings and has made special provisions in the age of grace to heal all who will come to Him in faith and obedience. Divine healing was purchased for us by the blood of Jesus Christ, especially by His stripes (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 8:16-17; I Peter 2:24).
Jesus went everywhere healing those who were sick (Matthew 4:23-24), and He commanded His disciples to do the same (Matthew 10:8). He said concerning those who believe the gospel, "They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mark 16:18). Mighty healings and miracles followed the disciples wherever the gospel was preached.
There is no sickness or disease too hard for God. Any of us, our children, or our friends can be healed by the power of God.
"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him , anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord shall raise him up: and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed" (James 5:14-16).

Second Coming of Christ
Jesus Christ is coming back to earth in bodily form, just as He went away (Acts 1:11). He will catch away a holy people (His bride, His church) who have accepted redemption through His blood, by birth of water and of the Spirit, and who are found faithful when He comes.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:16-17).
"One shall be taken and the other left" (Luke 17:36). Will we be ready?
The signs of His coming are everywhere. The days of peril are here indeed, with forms of godliness void of the power of God; society and politics corrupted; and people's hearts filled with pride, blasphemies, unholiness, love of evil, and love of pleasures (II Timothy 3:1-13). These things, together with multitudes running to and fro, the increase of knowledge (Daniel 12:4), the persecution of the Jews and their return to Palestine (Luke 21:24), and scores of other things are starting signs that Jesus' coming is drawing near.
Wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, storms, floods, distress of nations, perplexity, and people's hearts failing them for fear are sounding the solemn alarm that Jesus' coming is at hand (Matthew 24:6; Luke 21:25-28).
"Prepare to meet thy God" (Amos 4:12).

Resurrection
There will be a resurrection of all the dead, both just and unjust.
"Marvel not this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God . . . and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (Revelation 20:12-13)> (See also Daniel 12:2; I Corinthians 15:13-23.)

Judgment
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). For this reason there will be a resurrection for everyone. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (II Corinthians 5:10).
The eternal destiny of every soul shall be determined by a just God who knows the secrets of everyone's heart. "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. . . .Then shall he also say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:32-34, 41, 46).

To be continued:

[ChristopherHall]

Continued:

We believe that the Bible in its original languages is uniquely the infallible, unchangeable, divinely inspired Word of God by which all believers are to order their lives. (2 Timothy 3:16; Proverbs 30:5-6; Psalm 119:89; Matthew 7:24-27)

We believe that there is one God, who is Creator of all things and Lord over all creation; that He is an eternal, invisible, omnipresent, almighty Spirit; that He is holy; that He is merciful and good; and that He is the author and arbiter of all Truth; and that God is ONE. (Isaiah 45:5; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11; Matthew 11:25; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17; Jeremiah 23:24; Genesis 17:1; John 4:24; 1 Peter 1:16; Psalm 103:8; Psalm 145:9; Deuteronomy 32:4; 6:4)

We believe that God was manifest in flesh as the Man, Jesus of Nazareth, who is the Son of God, the Christ, and our Savior; that in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and that the name JESUS is the only personal name of Deity given among men whereby we must be saved. (1 Timothy 3:16; Romans 1:3; Matthew 16:16; John 4:42; Colossians 2:9; John 5:43; Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9; Acts 4:12)

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was fully human; that He was begotten of the Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, was crucified for our sins, rose bodily from the dead on the third day, ascended into heaven, poured out the Holy Spirit, gave ministerial gifts to the Church, and is coming again to reward all human beings according to their works. (1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 2:16; Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3; Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 2:1-4; Ephesians 4:7-11; Revelation 22:12).

We believe that salvation was purchased for all by the blood of Jesus Christ, but is effective only in those who repent, believe, and obey. (2 Corinthians 5:14; Luke 13:3; Mark 1:15; Acts 16:31; Hebrews 5:9)

We believe that salvation is based solely and entirely upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that salvation is received through repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ, which must be expressed by baptism (full immersion) in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission (or forgiveness) of sins; and that those so doing are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is initially evidenced by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-6; Acts 2:1-4)

We believe that all believers must follow on to know the Lord, to keep His commandments, to perfect holiness, to love their neighbors as themselves, and to live in a manner that reflects a total commitment to the principles and standards of Christianity as set forth in the Bible—and that anything less than this will ultimately result in a departure from the faith, a falling away, and a fearful expectation of judgment. There is no unconditional eternal security. (Hosea 6:3; 1 John 2:3; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Matthew 22:39; Titus 3:12; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-27)

We believe that there will be a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust; that all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that all who have been faithful will live forever with Jesus Christ; and that all who are unbelieving and unfaithful will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which God has prepared for the devil and his angels. (Daniel 12:2; Acts 24:15; Romans 14:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:12-15; Matthew 25:41)

This represents my current thoughts on the issue. After further discussion I may reconsider, but here’s where I am right now. I’m not saying that these should be brought out and made our teaching program every time we meet. I’m saying that this could be provided to those who are baptized and/or filled with the Holy Ghost. We could also give a pamphlet listing these things to anyone who asks, “What do you guys believe?”

God bless.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by nathan_slatter

Yeah -- I tend to agree with this. If it is Truth it will stand -- if it isn't it won't...

I’m not sure if I believe in the idea that if something is truth it will stand and if it isn’t it wont. I’ve seen brothers and sisters drift into error. There is a church in Dayton that used to be a solid Apostolic church. After the pastor died and his son was appointed the church has drifted into Charismatic Trinitarian stuff. It happens, honest it does. LOL

How does one keep a house church on target doctrinally and keep it from drifting. Sure, it would be easy if only one person who was solidly rooted in the essentials were teaching...but for a more open meeting one is really opening the floor to God knows what and I think it would be wise to have a foundation of essentials from which to operate.

[nathan_slatter]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I’m not sure if I believe in the idea that if something is truth it will stand and if it isn’t it wont. I’ve seen brothers and sisters drift into error. There is a church in Dayton that used to be a solid Apostolic church. After the pastor died and his son was appointed the church has drifted into Charismatic Trinitarian stuff. It happens, honest it does. LOL

How does one keep a house church on target doctrinally and keep it from drifting. Sure, it would be easy if only one person who was solidly rooted in the essentials were teaching...but for a more open meeting one is really opening the floor to God knows what and I think it would be wise to have a foundation of essentials from which to operate.

First, you're asking these questions to a guy who would be one that is "weak" on doctrine. I don't believe that trinity is any worse/better than oneness. The two of them are mere ideas that one wishes to believe and prove. You're speaking to a guy who believes that theologies are mere opinions. That said, i believe that everyone has a theology.

Personally, my theology is as simple as this:

I believe God is. I believe that Jesus is messiah. I believe that we are to love God with our everything and love our neighbor as ourselves. Everything else is mere commentary.

Outside of these basics -- I can't give you much more than opinion. We can all set around and quote scripture and pontificate about the different theologies that we believe. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily weak on doctrine because I do believe things outside of that simple basis BUT I can't do much more than say that what I believe is merely my opinion. I can discuss my opinion, providing reasons why I believe my opinion, BUT I can not allow my opinion (theology) to become the basis of everything I am about. At the point that my theology is so concrete that God himself could walk into the room and because he was eating corn on the sabbath (which was mere theological law) I dismiss him as being carnal and weak because he doesn't fit into what I absolutely know is "true" -- I find myself having a form of Godliness but deny the very power thereof.

At the point that I can not understand the others point of view/theology I have ham-stringed myself because it is at that point that I close a door that God could very well walk through. And some people aren't comfortable with doing that -- which I understand. BUT one can not dismiss another's theology out of hand. We are to gather together and seek the face of God -- not demand that everyone believes as I do.

Truth will stand -- and if it doesn't, it isn't Truth that has changed, rather it is our inability to evolve into where Truth is leading that is the problem. The problem is when we POSSESS Truth. At that point it is MY truth and you must accept that which I say is Truth. Truth is not to be possessed but to be looked for and found -- but not possessed. The Jews have a saying that was said in the days of old (mere commentary, of course). They say that Torah is like a multi-faceted jewel with 70 sides. Their point is that the Torah doesn't change but it does seem to appear different depending on how one beholds the jewel.

Truth does not change -- we do. Our lives do. Our culture does. Our society does.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by nathan_slatter

First, you're asking these questions to a guy who would be one that is "weak" on doctrine. I don't believe that trinity is any worse/better than oneness. The two of them are mere ideas that one wishes to believe and prove. You're speaking to a guy who believes that theologies are mere opinions. That said, i believe that everyone has a theology.

Personally, my theology is as simple as this:

I believe God is. I believe that Jesus is messiah. I believe that we are to love God with our everything and love our neighbor as ourselves. Everything else is mere commentary.

Outside of these basics -- I can't give you much more than opinion. We can all set around and quote scripture and pontificate about the different theologies that we believe. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily weak on doctrine because I do believe things outside of that simple basis BUT I can't do much more than say that what I believe is merely my opinion. I can discuss my opinion, providing reasons why I believe my opinion, BUT I can not allow my opinion (theology) to become the basis of everything I am about. At the point that my theology is so concrete that God himself could walk into the room and because he was eating corn on the sabbath (which was mere theological law) I dismiss him as being carnal and weak because he doesn't fit into what I absolutely know is "true" -- I find myself having a form of Godliness but deny the very power thereof.

At the point that I can not understand the others point of view/theology I have ham-stringed myself because it is at that point that I close a door that God could very well walk through. And some people aren't comfortable with doing that -- which I understand. BUT one can not dismiss another's theology out of hand. We are to gather together and seek the face of God -- not demand that everyone believes as I do.

Truth will stand -- and if it doesn't, it isn't Truth that has changed, rather it is our inability to evolve into where Truth is leading that is the problem. The problem is when we POSSESS Truth. At that point it is MY truth and you must accept that which I say is Truth. Truth is not to be possessed but to be looked for and found -- but not possessed. The Jews have a saying that was said in the days of old (mere commentary, of course). They say that Torah is like a multi-faceted jewel with 70 sides. Their point is that the Torah doesn't change but it does seem to appear different depending on how one beholds the jewel.

Truth does not change -- we do. Our lives do. Our culture does. Our society does.

I can see your point. While I believe some things are very concrete truths, those truths are only how I see the Jewel. Nice analogy. But I have a lot of questions.

What is interesting is that when Jesus summed up the Law he illustrated that the Lord is one Lord and that we are to love him with all our being and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. Trinitarianism departs from a very important aspect of these core truths by proposing that the Lord is three. Also Scripture and history are clear that early Christian baptism was done in Jesus name, not the titles of the Trinity. That which is refutable cannot be considered a valid truth.

How does one maintain an “Apostolic” house church if any theology (including unbiblical theology) is just as valid as any other?

What if a member wants to read from the Book of Mormon or the Book of Certitude?

Are we to believe that there are no foundational truths?

Why did the Apostles admonish the church not to embrace false teachers…if there are no false teachings?

I see much value in the house church model…but what’s interesting to me is that the discussion has gone from questioning methods to questioning doctrine. That’s something I didn’t expect. I mean I can understand differing opinions on standards (television, dress, wedding bands, etc) or highly symbolic teachings like prophecy (Futurism, Preterism, Historicism, Idealism)…but I was a caught off guard as we turned down this path. I searched long and hard, praying much for an understanding, before this Apostolic truth was revealed to me. I almost ended up being Bahai when I was in high school. LOL

But please trust me when I say this, while we may disagree somewhat here and there because I’m big on doctrine, I still love ya bro.

Would you allow me to teach from the Pearl of Great Price or the Book of Mormon in a house church you oversaw?

Does anyone see where I'm coming from or am I alone here? LOL

[nathan_slatter]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I can see your point. While I believe some things are very concrete truths, those truths are only how I see the Jewel. Nice analogy. But I have a lot of questions.

Yeah -- it is one of my favorite.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

What is interesting is that when Jesus summed up the Law he illustrated that the Lord is one Lord and that we are to love him with all our being and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. Trinitarianism departs from a very important aspect of these core truths by proposing that the Lord is three. Also Scripture and history are clear that early Christian baptism was done in Jesus name, not the titles of the Trinity. That which is refutable cannot be considered a valid truth.

First, every trinitarian that i have spoken to doesn't believe in three as I was raised to believe that they did. The words manifestation and persons are interchangable -- I've talked to enough of them to have a decent opinion about it.

That said, "in the name of" intimates more than just saying a name. It goes back, in the original Hebrew meaning in the authority of, the essence of. When a son went forth in the name of his father, it wasn't that he took his fathers name as much as it was that he became the personification of his father. So, no matter what his name was, his life, his goals, his aspirations -- when proclaim that he came in his fathers name -- was not his own but the one in whose name he was coming in.

I see baptism no differently. In the words of most oneness -- what is the name of the Father (Jesus), what is the name of the son (Jesus), and what is the name of the Holy Ghost (Jesus). In the end, we are baptized into the authority, the essence, the goals, the aspirations of Jesus, whose authority, essence, goals, and aspirations came came from His Father (who oneness see as one and the same). If we are baptize in the name of the Father aren't we also baptized in the name of Jesus because it isn't necessarily the name as much as into the authority of "the name"? And the same with the Son and Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

How does one maintain an “Apostolic” house church if any theology (including unbiblical theology) is just as valid as any other?

What is Apostolic? I notice that you have it in quotes so I'm assuming that you are speaking of Oneness (and depending on who you speak to, holiness as well). That asked, I believe that the basis of theology is found in our journey, our search for truth. Yes, if we seek it we will find it -- but will it be found here or will it be as Paul says that we look as through a glass darkly but THEN (upon the entrance to heaven) will all things be revealed?

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

What if a member wants to read from the Book of Mormon or the Book of Certitude?

I had to go look up the Book of Certitude -- not something I've read before.

That said, this is a good question. I've not been faced with this situation so can't really speak as to how I would deal with it. In the end, it wouldn't be merely my decision, rather the decision of the group as a whole and there will always be a line for each house group to draw -- not a single persons line but a group agreed upon line. As I said, I have no problem with being firm one one's beliefs, as long as one's beliefs do not outweigh God actually being able to move in their lives. If I disagree with the line and either discuss the line and provide my own opinions about my disagreement with it or I can move on.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Are we to believe that there are no foundational truths?

Sure. One can believe them -- they shouldn't expect everyone else to buy into just because one proclaims to have been shown the truth through specific anointing or some other supernatural incident.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Why did the Apostles admonish the church not to embrace false teachers…if there are no false teachings?

I do believe that there are false teachings. In fact, I believe that much of what I was raised to believe was false -- or at the very least, the way with which I was taught to believe it was false. In the end, are we so worried about false teachings that we can not create a group within which we are submitted to? This is the concept of the group -- that there is a web of accountability, not a single thread.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I see much value in the house church model…but what’s interesting to me is that the discussion has gone from questioning methods to questioning doctrine. That’s something I didn’t expect. I mean I can understand differing opinions on standards (television, dress, wedding bands, etc) or highly symbolic teachings like prophecy (Futurism, Preterism, Historicism, Idealism)…but I was a caught off guard as we turned down this path. I searched long and hard, praying much for an understanding, before this Apostolic truth was revealed to me. I almost ended up being Bahai when I was in high school. LOL

I, by no means, wish for you to change what you believe, or why you believe it. I merely question the idea that any one person, or even groups, can have possession of Truth. For instance, I am wary when I see such phrases a "Apostolic truth" (not to be offensive just explaining my thoughts, such as they are) because there seems to be a need to compartmentalize truth and label it. I do not believe in Apostolic truth -- just Truth. I just believe that Truth (God) is bigger than you and I can put into words. This doesn't mean we shouldn't try but it also doesn't mean that when I have found words that describe satisfactory to me that those are the only words that are to be used.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

But please trust me when I say this, while we may disagree somewhat here and there because I’m big on doctrine, I still love ya bro.

**grin** I'm easy my friend. And, to be honest, I tend to wax philosophical when it comes to religion for various reasons. The main one being that I believe that religion is a philosophy all on its own.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Would you allow me to teach from the Pearl of Great Price or the Book of Mormon in a house church you oversaw?

See above.

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Does anyone see where I'm coming from or am I alone here? LOL

Make no mistake... I completely see where you are coming from. I do understand it. Let's put it this way -- you can use me for a example of what not to become...