If Physical Death is Final?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Well, seeing how a city (an inanimate object) cannot commit fornication, etc. It would seem that the writer is talking about the people of that city. If the writer is talking about the people, then we can conclude that they are in eternal fire.

The Bible itself illustrates that Sodom will be restored with Israel. Of course...again that can be interpreted two ways. This is no different than Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib debates.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Well, seeing how a city (an inanimate object) cannot commit fornication, etc. It would seem that the writer is talking about the people of that city. If the writer is talking about the people, then we can conclude that they are in eternal fire.

It says they were "SET FOR EXAMPLE" as in folks would see it. if they went tp a fiery hell no one on earth would see it.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

It says they were "SET FOR EXAMPLE" as in folks would see it. if they went tp a fiery hell no one on earth would see it.

Are you a materialist? If so, then only those things which can be perceived by the senses will do as an example. If not, then obviously there are a multitude of examples that live on by record or faith.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I'm sorry Brother Stokes....but sometimes issues are far too complex to fit onto a bumper sticker... though most of us in Pentecost depend on that sort of sound bite theology.

The issue at hand is that I see a group of brothers who desire to disfellowship another group of brothers over an issue that's ultimately in God's hands and can be interpreted several different ways. Some are looking for a reason to hate and separate...I'm admonishing that we look for a reason to love and bridge the gap with a Holy Ghost filled brother.

On a side note...

I wonder if our concept of a God who isn't concerned with reconciling all of mankind plays a part in our willingness to hate and separate from all who do not agree with us, though they have the same Holy Ghost that we do?

Maybe all deviant theologies represented here are of the devil...including Preterism (I jest.)

One man's heresy...is another man's sacrement.

The question is, unless it's an essential for salvation, can we maintain the bonds of love?

Ad hominem arguments are just another way to try to confuse the true meaning of the matter (this is for the bumper sticker comment).

I have never spoke of disfellowshiping anyone. I am a oneness believer who attends a trinitarian pentecostal church because all of the oneness churches in my area place an inordinate concern on the physical appearance. To make a long story short, this attitude actually pushed my wife away from God instead of drawing her closer. Thus, I am not one to wish to disfellowship people.

My only contention with all of this talk is that Jesus Christ speaks of eternal life and eternal death. If one places a limitation on the eternal death, then one must also place a limitation on eternal life. If one proceeds to set these limitations, then we open the Christian faith up to a plethora of false doctrines (e.g. reincarnation).

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Ad hominem arguments are just another way to try to confuse the true meaning of the matter (this is for the bumper sticker comment).

In all honesty, this is a subject about which volumes have been written, both discussing the Greek meanings of the Greek text and their possible interpretation, historical findings regarding early Christian belief, etc. I’m not muddying the waters by attempting to address the complexity of the issue…I’m desperately trying to be intellectually honest about the issue’s complexity. From my perspective…you’re not even considering that there may be more to this beyond what you’ve been taught or traditionally embraced. I’m not asking that you change what you believe…I’m asking that you at least be intellectually honest enough to see that the UR brothers and sisters have a viable interpretation of the text, though theirs is definitely a minority opinion among today’s Christian traditions.

I have never spoke of disfellowshiping anyone. I am a oneness believer who attends a trinitarian pentecostal church because all of the oneness churches in my area place an inordinate concern on the physical appearance. To make a long story short, this attitude actually pushed my wife away from God instead of drawing her closer. Thus, I am not one to wish to disfellowship people.

I’ve seen that too. That is such a shame bro. Good people have been alienated from God over outward standards designed by men. It’s really something that troubles me deeply. I’m blessed; I attend a UPCI church that doesn’t place so much emphasis on the outward appearance from the pulpit. All of that is handled in discipleship classes and essentially all are still welcome regardless of their outward appearance.

My only contention with all of this talk is that Jesus Christ speaks of eternal life and eternal death. If one places a limitation on the eternal death, then one must also place a limitation on eternal life. If one proceeds to set these limitations, then we open the Christian faith up to a plethora of false doctrines (e.g. reincarnation).

One has to define eternal death. The annihilationist will argue that it speaks of eternal destruction. The eternal torment advocate would argue that it speaks of eternal alienation from God, who is life. The universal reconciliationist would argue that it speaks of the eternal death to self as experienced in the lake of fire as part of one’s reconciliation. All believe in “eternal death”, it’s the nature of that death that is disagreed upon.

As for reincarnation….if the subject is of interest to you from a Judeo perspective it might be valuable for you to study the Jewish concept of the soul’s transmigration and belief in “Gilgul”. There are elements of the Gospels that lend themselves to the possibility that these beliefs were common in the time of Christ, and in fact may have even been something the disciples were familiar with. For example, Jesus is once asked…

John 9:1-3
{9:1} And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth. {9:2} And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he
was born blind? {9:3} Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

This question is very interesting if evaluated. How could this man have “sinned” before he was born? Some rabbis held to the belief that a soul could sin in the womb. Others believed in the concept of Gilgul, or the transmigration of souls. This concept is a Jewish concept of reincarnation in which human souls return strictly as human beings, no transmigration between species. Also this concept holds that the transmigration is typically a prophet sent back by Yahweh to another generation, hence ancient beliefs regarding Elijah’s return and the theorizing of John the Baptist being Elijah, Jeremiah, or “one of the prophets”; or as a punishment. Today this concept is embraced by some Hasidics and others who are students of Kabalistic interpretations of Torah. Some hold to the idea that this is what Jesus meant when he said…

Mark 10:29-30
{10:29} And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, {10:30} But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Personally, I don’t hold the belief…but I see it’s complexity and why some might embrace it. Again, as with UR, I don’t see it as a major issue. I don’t pretend to know everything…and should I find out that God has sent souls back into life, I will not be disappointed in the least. God is God and can do as he pleases. It’s God’s prerogative.

***************

Note: In reference to the Jewish concept of Gilgul. Some rabbinical scholars hold that it's possible for the soul of a prophet or another individual to be reincarnated into the body of a separate individual. Some see a correlation here to John the Baptist having been overshadowed by the spirit and power of Elijah. Others say this explains why and how some may not be reincarnated, but share memories and experiences held by those who died generations before. Again, it's a complex issue.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

If God gives the Holy Ghost to UR believers...I don't see how you can argue against having fellowship with them. I break it down kind of like this personally...

Essential Doctrine:
Oneness of God
Acts 2:38 as the full plan of salvation
Christian living
Bodily Return of Jesus Christ

Non Essential Doctrine:
Eschatology (Prophecy)
Eschatology (What happens after death, including UR, soul sleep, etc.)
Various standards of dress and hair
Calvinism
Armenianism

Essential doctrine is comprised of the six principles in Hebrews 6, bro. That is my whole point. Principles are foundations.

I'd never disfellowship a brother or a sister based on a non-essential teaching.

Exactly. But you are not realizing that the principles of Hebrews 6 are foundational principles and we must agree on those six elements.

[Antipas]

Let's look at this verse together...

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

If we are to take this as listing the essentials of the Christian faith we see the following as being essential:

Repentance
Faith in God
Baptism
Laying of Hands
Resurrection of the Dead
Eternal Judgment

I'd like to point out that no one disagrees that God will issue eternal judgments upon all men. What's at issue is the nature and purpose of those judgments.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Let's look at this verse together...

Hebrews 6:1-2
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

If we are to take this as listing the essentials of the Christian faith we see the following as being essential:

Repentance
Faith in God
Baptism
Laying of Hands
Resurrection of the Dead
Eternal Judgment

I'd like to point out that no one disagrees that God will issue eternal judgments upon all men. What's at issue is the nature and purpose of those judgments.

UR disagrees with what we consider final eternal judgment is and the outcomes, generally speaking. It's really a no-brainer, Antipas.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

UR disagrees with what we consider final eternal judgment is and the outcomes, generally speaking. It's really a no-brainer, Antipas.

Bro Blume, consider the following verse…

Colossians 1: 16 and 20.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Simple question…

Will God reconcile all things unto himself; yes or no?

[Antipas]

*crickets*

Where'd y'all go? lol