Do OPs have a grace problem? - Page 13

Truthseeker · #1 04-03-2013, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

The problem lies with folks that link Grace Salvation to thinking that those that believe in Grace only salvation go out and sin that the greasy Gracers can go do whatever they want and still be saved. Thats the wrong way of thinking. I know plenty of 3 steppers that have went back out into the world and continued to sin.

Interesting that some accuse some grace believers of license to sin as if folks are not sinning in there belief system. When one sins in a law church they blame the person not the law but when one sins in a grace church they blame grace.

KWSS1976 · #2 04-03-2013, 12:58 PM

Aquila you said it alot better then me...lol

KWSS1976 · #3 04-03-2013, 01:29 PM

[url]http://www.hymnary.org/hymn/PHN51911/16 why sing a song if we are not saved by Grace..Have heard it many times in my Apostolic Church...Even have sang some Amazing Grace.. I can post that one to but some on here are not saved by his Grace...lol..O I love having fun with you guys and your silly doctrines..We sing Grace songs in our Apostolic/Pentecostal churches but we are not saved by Grace...lol love it.

Aquila · #4 04-03-2013, 01:36 PM

Jesus interpreted the law for the masses while under the law bringing swift condemnation. For example, Jesus said...

Matthew 5:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This brought swift condemnation to those who might argue, "But I never actually touched her."

Back then divorce was running rampant as it is today. And Jesus said,

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Boom! Masses of listeners were condemned.

Again, Jesus interpreted the Law:

Matthew 5:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

BOOM! Again the masses were condemned. These are all interpretations of the law.

Jesus then boils the entire law down to two simple commandments:

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 10:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What does God expect of us???

1.) To love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) To demonstrate that love for God by loving others as ourselves.

Paul also elaborates, carrying this into the NT:

Galatians 5:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

To accomplish this, we must "abide" in Christ. That means that we are to maintain a spiritual union, or oneness, with Him through the Holy Ghost, living as extensions, branches of the Vine.

John 15:1-10
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This "spiritual abiding" will bring forth a love that produces certain "fruit":

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance.

Here are what I believe to be the "biblical standards" (just speaking the religious language here) that we must keep after conversion. One must:

1.) Reckon their very identity in Christ.

2.) Seek Christlikeness through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is a lifelong journey of spiritual growth.

3.) Surrender to the indwelling Spirit to manifest fruit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

4.) Fulfill the whole law by loving their neighbour as themselves. In this, we demonstrate our love for God.

5.) We are to repent of and seek to abstain from, and pray for our proclivities towards, the works of the flesh: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

In that sense... I guess I do believe in "standards". And for those who struggle with the works of the flesh in this stage of their spiritual development we find...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We must be honest about our sins and struggles. We must confess the sins and sinful tendencies of our flesh. We must live a life of confession before God. In this state of absolute humility before God's grace... we can be cleansed and counted "sinless" before God, robed in Christ's own sinless righteousness. He has traded me coats.

The truth is, the Bible says...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Even on our most well behaved day... we are inherently repugnant to God. Even when we've done our absolute best... it's not good enough to earn His love or our salvation. We'll only begin an existence wherein we are sinless after our glorification. On that day, the very nature of God will fill us that God might be all in all. We shall be absolutely... like Him. Not by becoming "little Gods"... but by partaking in His very nature and all it's fulness. His sinless holiness will absolutely fill our entire being.

Until then... our only hope is grace.

LUKE2447 · #5 04-03-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

We must be honest about our sins and struggles. The truth is, the Bible says...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You do realize you as many have taken this completely out of context.

the garment Israel wears is the clothing God gave them which was the covenant to do. Just as the Bride has been given to clothe herself so was Israel.

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.
Isa 64:5 You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isa 64:7 There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

The garment they where given was polluted because of unrepentance. The righteous deeds = the covenant. That which was righteous was now filth because they would not seek or call upon God as a people.

Aquila · #6 04-03-2013, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

You do realize you as many have taken this completely out of context.

the garment Israel wears is the clothing God gave them which was the covenant to do. Just as the Bride has been given to clothe herself so was Israel.

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.
Isa 64:5 You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isa 64:7 There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

The garment they where given was polluted because of unrepentance. The righteous deeds = the covenant. That which was righteous was now filth because they would not seek or call upon God as a people.

It doesn't matter if it's the Law of Moses, the law of the UPCI, the law of one's pastor, or the law of one's own private interpretation. No adherence to law can earn the absolute holy righteousness that God requires. To say that one could is an insult to God's holiness and demonstrates a woeful misunderstanding of both how Holy God is... and how serious sin is in His sight. Even some of the ways we've spoken to one another on this forum demands that someone DIE before God. However, God punished Jesus in our place, providing propitiation. He is my sin bearer.

LUKE2447 · #7 04-03-2013, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

It doesn't matter if it's the Law of Moses, the law of the UPCI, the law of one's pastor, or the law of one's own private interpretation. No adherence to law can earn the absolute holy righteousness that God requires. To say that one could is an insult to God's holiness and demonstrates a woeful misunderstanding of both how Holy God is... and how serious sin is in His sight. Even some of the ways we've spoken to one another on this forum demands that someone DIE before God. However, God punished Jesus in our place, providing propitiation. He is my sin bearer.

ZIIIIP right over the head. Why you even bring this up and the context of what I said is insane. Goodbye.