We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Context is needed. The book of Galatians was written to a church that was being taken over by legalists. Paul is warning them about being deceived by this legalistic error. Just previously Paul had compared the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is the "fruit" surrrendering, resting in Christ, and allowing the Spirit of Christ to live through us. Notice, these things are the "fruit of the Spirit" within, not the "fruit of our devotion" or the "fruit of our efforts".

You don't know if you willunto the end and you stand before God as we will give a account.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Every man will give an account. No doubt about that. But the believer gives an account to determine reward, not salvation. The believer's salvation was secured by Christ. Can a believer fall away? Yes. But only after significantly resisting, grieving, and doing spite unto the Spirit of God. It’s not based on their behavior as much as their position. Works rather they be righteous or wicked are only indicators of what is inside. They are like the symptoms of a disease. The real issue is their abiding in the Vine (Jesus Christ) by faith. Faith in the Vine brings fruit in the branches. When a branch isn’t producing fruit the problem is that life is being cut off between the branch and the vine. The branch can try harder all it likes, but its fruit will be malformed. The branch must be mended with the vine. This comes by repenting of sin (a change of mind towards sin) and appropriating biblical truths regarding our position in Christ, and accepting them by faith.

There is an interesting thing about human beings. They behave as they believe themselves to be. We see this in children who have been verbally abused. If someone has told them that they are worthless, no good, will not amount to anything, and these infections thoughts infiltrate their souls they will see themselves in this way, thereby affecting their behaviors. The good news is… all charges against you have been dropped. Why? Jesus paid it ALL. On the cross Jesus became sin (your sin) so that you could become the righteousness of God. On the cross Jesus took all the judgment and wrath you deserved, all of it. By faith you were justified (made just in God’s sight) because Christ’s righteousness was imputed to you. This took place the moment you began praying to God to forgive your sins. Being justified, God sanctified you in Christ (set you apart for Himself) by filling you with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost entered your spiritually dead human spirit and you experienced regeneration. Now your spirit and the Spirit of God are “one”. Like bleach cutting grease the righteousness and holiness of the Holy Ghost obliterated the vile impurities of sin in your spirit. Being one with God through the Spirit of Christ it can be said that you are now a partaker in the divine nature and you are one with God. You ARE a new creature (a new creation). You are an extension of Jesus Christ, a branch now living in connection with the Vine. You didn’t die at the altar when you repented. You died on the cross when your old man was crucified with Christ. At the altar you “appropriated” that truth to your life. Now you are legally “dead” to the Law. Imagine being arrested for all the wrongs you’ve ever committed and when brought before the court the judge says, “Legally we can’t prosecute you. According to our records, you’re dead. Besides, according to our records you’ve already paid the penalty for all these sins. This court issues an acquittal and release from all charges.” So you are “dead”, crucified with Christ, and yet you live. How? It’s not you that now live, but the Christ who lives within you. The very Christ who gave Himself for you is now one with you. He exchanged your old man, that old life, that body of sins, with His righteousness. Now you stand as righteous as Christ Jesus, your spirit being one with the very God who created all things. However, there is a little issue we have to deal with. It’s called the flesh and the carnal mind. Though your spirit has undergone regeneration and you ARE a new creature, pure and holy in the very core of your being…your flesh has yet to be glorified. Therefore there are biological issues you must deal with; things ranging from hormones to chemical imbalances, sickness, and even death. However, one day your body will be raised and glorified by the very Spirit of God. Also we deal with the carnal mind. God didn’t erase every memory, habitual or negative thought pattern when your spirit was regenerated. Therefore your proclivities toward sin remain with regards to your mind. And when you sin, suddenly you feel “convicted” by the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Why? It’s because you’re acting out of harmony with your new nature. Many believe the answer is to “try harder” not to sin and replace said sin with “spiritual disciplines”. However, those who do will discover a never ending roller coaster of ups and downs. This doesn’t set them free, it only temporarily treats the symptoms of the disease, a carnal mind. Don’t be fooled, a carnal mind can be VERY religious. But its strength is in will worship. It takes pride it its own ability to modify behavior, thus producing religious pride and self righteousness. This is the condition of the legalist. What is the real answer to this dilemma? They must undergo the renewal of their mind. This is done through the Word of God. Not merely reading it. Not merely “trying to do” it. But appropriating it’s truths by faith. For example, if they believe they are a “sinner” saved by grace… they will behave like a sinner and simply fall into the pattern of pleading for more of God’s grace. However, if they appropriate the truth that they are NOT a sinner any longer, they are a SAINT. They are a NEW CREATURE. They are ONE with Christ. They are REGENERATED in their spirits…its like having been told that you’re a nobody and that you’ll never amount to anything all your life… and then discovering that you’re the child of a King. You’re royal blood with authority and an inheritance. When this reality is appropriated by faith and the believer “owns” this truth… it will radically change how they think about themselves. It will radically altar the thought patterns of the carnal mind. When all the truths regarding our identity in Christ are appropriated by faith…the carnal mind is renewed and one begins to take on the mind of Christ. Most Christians who struggle with sin…simply don’t know who they really are in Jesus Christ. Once our identity is appropriated by faith, we take on the mind of Christ, thereby overcoming habitual sin.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

We will be found good or bad stewards at judgment...

Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

1Co 4:2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

(Rom. 2:6-7) “God will give(which is a appointed time of bestowing) to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

(2 Cor. 5:10) “For we must all(Christians clearly included) appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” [/QUOTE]

I firmly believe we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be judged for our works. However, I’m not convinced that our judgment determines salvation. That judgment was already performed upon Christ Jesus at the cross. You and I died with Him, and were buried with Him. The requirement of death for our sins has been met. We’re dead to the Law, legally dead.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Keep on twisting what we are saying. Disobedience and sin removes us from being in Christ. This nonsense about God not seeing us sin is crazy. As soon as we sin and fail to repent, we are no longer in Christ!

I've enjoyed your posts Bro. Blume, but I have a few questions.

How is the above not works based? Again, I think we're looking at symptoms of a greater problem and demanding that they be treated. If a person continues in sin, the issue isn't the sin...it's their having broken oneness with Christ. They are not taking control, breaking ranks with the indwelling Spirit, and living their own lives, Christ isn't being allowed to live through them. They can leave Christ, abandon the church, and later turn from doing the evil things they are doing. But unless they return to the vine, they are still severed branches. I believe that our "sins" were dealt with at the cross. ALL of them. Past, present, and future. So the "sinful behaviors" aren't the problem...it's their relationship. They need to reconnect with Christ, they need to come back to a place where they are in Christ. Therefore the sin they must repent of is...breaking ranks with Christ Jesus. Once they are back "in Christ" and connected to the Vine, their behavior will change as their mind is renewed by the life that flows through the Vine into them.

No such thing as OSAS. The two cents' guys who think their good deeds pay for heaven will say any dependence upon the blood alone for righteousness is osas, and yet we blow that distortion away and say we can lose our salvation by disobedience.

The heat we see between the doctrines of Free Will and Perseverance of the Saints is essentially a theological antimony. Both are absolutely correct. The issue is point of reference. If we begin with man, there is Free Will. If we begin with God, people are what they will be. This has been ordained to be so by the very will of God without interferrence...thus predestined according to His will. That's why when asked, I typically say that I believe in Free Will...but God's a Calvinist. LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Question y'all. Since OSAS and OSNAS has been brought into the discussion, how does the following scripture play into either OSAS and OSNAS

Eph 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

In other words, if a born again individual is sealed by God, can the person become unsealed?

When discussing Free Will and Perseverance of the Saints it's important to note that both are absolutely correct. As human beings we see things in the context of either/or. With God, multiple realities are present. God sees people they way they will be. And He chose to make them this way, without interferrence. Thus all things are predestined according to the will of God. Free will is true also. However, our choices only manifest what God has already ordained to be so.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

If you are sinless per your comment "In God's eyes, I am ABSOLUTELY SINLESS" are you always sinless in God's eyes in your life or what are ALL the parameters of this statement?

Did Christ already pay the price for all his sins??? Did Christ already stand in for him as his complete propitiation? Was he (the old man) crucified with Christ? Is he reckoned dead to the Law of sin and death? Then yes, God's holiness and justice have been appeased by Christ. Judicially there is no debt owed for tresspasses.

Let's say the IRS sends me a letter saying that I owe $100,000,000,000,000 in taxes. They demand immediate payment or they will sentence me to prison for the rest of my life. And then Jesus walks into that court room, gets up on the stand for all to see, spreads His arms, and writes a check to be applied to my account with them for $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000....

What do I owe? What would I ever owe? I will faithfully pay my taxes from this day forward. They will send me a refund check for an immeasurable amount. That goes into my bank account. I'll pay my taxes every year from that sum. If one year I fail to pay my taxes and they state that I owe...I have that money in the bank.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've enjoyed your posts Bro. Blume, but I have a few questions.

How is the above not works based?

No, since the ticket to glory is not what we do nor can do. It is what Christ did. We have responsibility to remain in Christ. But even then, it is by our faith that we are empowered to do what is right so that we do not commit the sin that will remove us from Christ.

Again, I think we're looking at symptoms of a greater problem and demanding that they be treated. If a person continues in sin, the issue isn't the sin...it's their having broken oneness with Christ.

Exactly! But THEY can break that oneness.

They are not taking control, breaking ranks with the indwelling Spirit, and living their own lives, Christ isn't being allowed to live through them.

Amen.

They can leave Christ, abandon the church, and later turn from doing the evil things they are doing. But unless they return to the vine, they are still severed branches.

Right.

I believe that our "sins" were dealt with at the cross. ALL of them. Past, present, and future. So the "sinful behaviors" aren't the problem...it's their relationship.

I completely agree with you.

They need to reconnect with Christ, they need to come back to a place where they are in Christ. Therefore the sin they must repent of is...breaking ranks with Christ Jesus. Once they are back "in Christ" and connected to the Vine, their behavior will change as their mind is renewed by the life that flows through the Vine into them.

Right. That IS the deeper problem. Not many look at it that way but is THE way.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, since the ticket to glory is not what we do nor can do. It is what Christ did. We have responsibility to remain in Christ. But even then, it is by our faith that we are empowered to do what is right so that we do not commit the sin that will remove us from Christ.

Exactly! But THEY can break that oneness.

Amen.

Right.

I completely agree with you.
Right. That IS the deeper problem. Not many look at it that way but is THE way.

We are separated from Him by our own continued and willful choices to be so. Our actions do not save us, Jesus does. However, we can choose to neglect our relationship with Him, and to continually offend Him.

Our own will is the only thing that can separate us from His love. Even then, he constantly seeks to redeem and save. He is the Hosea constantly yearning for Gomer, even when she is nothing but a whore, and tramples on His love.

He won't give up easy.

He went looking for Adam even though Adam disobeyed. He punished, but did not destroy.

He went looking for a coin, a lost sheep and a wayward son though He did not need any of them. Why? Because its in His nature to redeem.

No, our God is not looking for ways to condemn. He's come to save.

He makes us perfect when we fall on His mercy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Charnock

We are separated from Him by our own continued and willful choices to be so. Our actions do not save us, Jesus does. However, we can choose to neglect our relationship with Him, and to continually offend Him.

Our own will is the only thing that can separate us from His love. Even then, he constantly seeks to redeem and save. He is the Hosea constantly yearning for Gomer, even when she is nothing but a whore, and tramples on His love.

Amen. Paul listed the things that cannot separate him from God's love, but he did not list SELF since SELF can.

He won't give up easy.

He went looking for Adam even though Adam disobeyed. He punished, but did not destroy.

He went looking for a coin, a lost sheep and a wayward son though He did not need any of them. Why? Because its in His nature to redeem.

No, our God is not looking for ways to condemn. He's come to save.

He makes us perfect when we fall on His mercy.

Amen and amen.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

A tired, worn out cliche promoted by Evangelicals. Tell me this? Did God SEE IT when Anannias and Saphira sinned? Or did he just see Jesus? When God SEE it when the works of the Sardis Christians were not perfect? Or did he just see Jesus? Did God SEE the lukewarm Ladocian Christians or did he just see Jesus?

Annanias and Sephira cut themselves off from Jesus. Also, their withholding illustrates something about their nature. I'm not convinced that they didn't withhold from God at the moment they appeared to repent and were baptized. If they were truly branches of the Vine...Christ's life would be flowing through them. Such would be unthinkable to them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Lutzer - "he only sees Jesus. He took the pages out of my book and put Jesus's pages in it." Isn't that nice!

Are you mocking the atonement?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

OSAS... thanks

Luke you're thinking in earthly categories. OSAS vs. [fill in the blank]. Believers aren't always that cut and dry. For example, I believe that eternal security and free will are antimonies that are both realities. I can speak on a perspective from each position and be absolutely correct. The power of this paradox can open blind eyes... and blind those who say they can see.