Is the Father the Son?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Red alert ....

IF THE SON IS HE WHO IS ... OR THE IAM ....
AND THE I AM WAS IN THE BEGINNING

THEN THE SON IS ETERNAL?

Most OPs will not accept an eternal sonship.

An Eternal Sonship means there was a Father and a Son distinct from one another eternally. Oneness, while saying the Son is the I AM are NOT saying The I AM always existed as the Son. In other words the Son is the I AM because the I AM is that WHO that became the Son when the incarnatin happened or He added a human nature

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How is that any different KP from your answer ... He said the I Am ... you said he who is ...

If he wants he could answer you w/ your own words:

He who IS the Father IS God!
He who IS the Son IS God!
He who IS the Holy Spirit IS God!

Yes but that is not the same thing as a Oneness. Oneness would say it's the same HE. They would say three distinct HE's

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes but that is not the same thing as a Oneness. Oneness would say it's the same HE. They would say three distinct HE's

LOL ... you can't say those three statements without qualifying it .... sad.

Insecurities.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

LOL ... you can't say those three statements without qualifying it .... sad.

Insecurities.

I qualify it Dan because I know it is NOT the same statement to a Trinitarian that it is to a Oneness. Hiding behind the LOLs and mockery is not helping your case.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Really??? you have a problem w/ what I've said??? ... KP didn't ...

Perhaps mentioning all three modes, manifestations, aspects, distinctions together spooks you.

You have issue w/ it? LOL. Perhaps you are not Oneness enough?

Dan,

I was joking with you! You keep fighting against the Oneness believers on this thread without giving your thoughts on the differences between our views on the oneness of God and the Trinity, nor have you answered the intial post. Who's side are you on? And what do you believe?

Discussing modes, manifestation, aspects, distinctions doesn't spook me. I've been discussing this with Trinitarians on CARM for over a year now and with Trinitarians on the GNC for months as well.

Are you trying to say I'm a Trinophobic?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan,

I was joking with you! You keep fighting against the Oneness believers on this thread without giving your thoughts on the differences between our views on the oneness of God and the Trinity, nor have you answered the intial post. Who's side are you on? And what do you believe?

Discussing modes, manifestation, aspects, distinctions doesn't spook me. I've been discussing this with Trinitarians on CARM for over a year now and with Trinitarians on the GNC for months as well.

Let me help out with this issue once again ... [One more LOL, for Praxeas.]

First, indubitably, I'm more Oneness than you'll ever be ... and questioning that fact does nothing to change it. I'm secure in it.

The Oneness model to understanding our God is easiest for me to comprehend for many reasons ... most probably because I grew up in it...

It's about focus, my dear friend.

We focus on the deity of Jesus Christ while still acknowledging the distinctions in how God has revealed himself ....

Trinitarians focus a lot of their energies on the distinctions of God while still acknowledging the deity of Jesus Christ ....

As i stated earlier an earlier thread:

... the existence of this inane debate revolves around:

1. semantics over words such as persons, distinctions, modes, etc.
2. pride in presenting facts, figures,scripture, grammar, logic, scholarship and Church history while debunking the other side's facts, figures, logic, interpretation of scripture, grammar, scholarship and Church history. {I want to be right and prove you wrong while never admitting when I am wrong}
3. prejudices and hatreds based on a century old feud

eventually leading to more circular debates on:

4. the proper baptismal formula and questioning the other's salvation

and most often culminates in:

5. name calling, sensitivities hurt, and insults
---------------------------

In the end, this is what matters ... both sides whole heartedly agree and believe in:

1. One God
2.The Mighty God in Christ
3. Jesus is fully man and fully God
4. Jesus is the Son of God
5. Jesus died for our sins and was raised to give us new life.
6. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Carry on ... lol.

Once again, I'll reiterate ... the minute I can fully explain and define an infinite and Almighty God ... He ceases to be God ....

and I've become an idolater.

----------------

Are you a Trinophobic, Mizpeh ???... I'd get over it because you'll be spending eternity with several million.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

1. semantics over words such as persons, distinctions, modes, etc.
2. pride in presenting facts, figures,scripture, grammar, logic, scholarship and Church history while debunking the other side's facts, figures, logic, interpretation of scripture, grammar, scholarship and Church history. {I want to be right and prove you wrong while never admitting when I am wrong}
3. prejudices and hatreds based on a century old feud

eventually leading to more circular debates on:

4. the proper baptismal formula and questioning the other's salvation

and most often culminates in:

5. name calling, sensitivities hurt, and insults
---------------------------

In the end, this is what matters ... both sides whole heartedly agree and believe in:

1. One God
2.The Mighty God in Christ
3. Jesus is fully man and fully God
4. Jesus is the Son of God
5. Jesus died for our sins and was raised to give us new life.
6. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Carry on ... lol.

Once again, I'll reiterate ... the minute I can fully explain and define an infinite and Almighty God ... He ceases to be God ....

I've become an idolater.

Dan,

I believe discussions like this can be done without name calling.

Both sides, Oneness and Trinitarians, may agree on your points BUT you are speaking in generalities. Seriously, there are profound differences in the Trinitarian God and the Oneness God which leads to a difference in who Jesus is : an eternal Son vs a Son by conception. There are differences in what we mean by Jesus being fully God and fully man as well.... different Christological views.

I can see you want to placate both parties into coming together on the common ground we agree on. You will find that Trinitarians and Oneness cannot speak the same thing nor be united in one belief because FUNDAMENTALLY we believe different things though our wording may be very similar at times. You see how difficult it is to have unity in a Oneness camp (the UPC or even the AFF) what makes you think it is possible to have unity with two completely separate views on who and what God is? You take an ecumenical view which to some may be commendable, but to me it compromises truth.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan,

I believe discussions like this can be done without name calling.

Both sides may agree on your points BUT you are speaking in generalities. Seriously, there are profound differences in the Trinitarian God and the Oneness God which leads to a difference in who Jesus is : an eternal Son vs a Son by conception. There are differences in what we mean by Jesus being fully God and fully man as well.... different Christological views.

I can see you want to placate both parties into coming together on the common ground we agree on. You will find that Trinitarians and Oneness cannot speak the same thing nor be united in one belief because FUNDAMENTALLY we believe different things though our wording may be very similar at times. You see how difficult it is to have unity in a Oneness camp (the UPC or even the AFF) what makes you think it is possible to have unity with two completely separate views on who and what God is? You take an ecumenical view which to some may be commendable, to me it compromises truth.

BTW, there are Oneness believers that believe in Eternal Sonship ...

This issue is only an issue to most PAJC Oneness believers primarily because of their soteriological view, namely a baptismal formula ....

as long as that's the case ... you will see those who place their trust in Jesus Christ and enter into a binding relationship w/ him ... as lost ... and just well-intentioned.

If they are born of God and are filled w/ His Spirit .... they are my brethren .. . regardless if I view their explanation of God as lacking.

Your focus is in being able to explain God ... when He yearns for relationship.

My prayer is that of Jesus ... make us one .... as He and the Father are One.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How is that any different KP from your answer ... He said the I Am ... you said he who is ...

If he wants he could answer you w/ your own words:

He who IS the Father IS God!
He who IS the Son IS God!
He who IS the Holy Spirit IS God!

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

I've got no problem with that. I believe that. I just don't believe there are three different people "WHO IS."

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Let me help out with this issue once again ... [One more LOL, for Praxeas.]

First, indubitably, I'm more Oneness than you'll ever be ... and questioning that fact does nothing to change it. I'm secure in it.

The Oneness model to understanding our God is easiest for me to comprehend for many reasons ... most probably because I grew up in it...

It's about focus, my dear friend.

We focus on the deity of Jesus Christ while still acknowledging the distinctions in how God has revealed himself ....

Trinitarians focus a lot of their energies on the distinctions of God while still acknowledging the deity of Jesus Christ ....

As i stated earlier an earlier thread:

... the existence of this inane debate revolves around:
<snip>
In the end, this is what matters ... both sides whole heartedly agree and believe in:

1. One God
2.The Mighty God in Christ
3. Jesus is fully man and fully God
4. Jesus is the Son of God
5. Jesus died for our sins and was raised to give us new life.
6. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Carry on ... lol.

Once again, I'll reiterate ... the minute I can fully explain and define an infinite and Almighty God ... He ceases to be God ....

and I've become an idolater.

----------------

Are you a Trinophobic, Mizpeh ???... I'd get over it because you'll be spending eternity with several million.

Daniel, again you are promoting Three persons. You are not Oneness, no matter how many times you say it with your lips.

There may be several million there, but they will not be staying, for they lack identity and they do not know The Unknown God.

I know Jesus is the Father
I know Jesus is the Son
I know jesus is The Holy Ghost
And all these three are one!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

BTW, there are Oneness believers that believe in Eternal Sonship ...

This issue is only an issue to most PAJC Oneness belierver primarily in how it relates to their soteriological view .... as long as that's the case ... you will see those who place their trust in Jesus Christ and enter into a binding relationship w/ him ... as lost ... and just well-intentioned.

If they of born of God and are filled w/ His Spirit .... they are my brethren .. . regardless if I view their explanation of God as lacking.

It's a theological issue and has nothing to do with a PAJC view.

BTW what OPs believe in an Eternal Sonship?