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View Poll Results: Are sins forgiven at repentance or baptism?
Repentance 59 81.94%
Baptism 12 16.67%
Unsure 1 1.39%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 09-06-2008, 10:24 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Herein lies the debate Ms. B.

The term aphesis directly linked to repentance in scripture many times ...

the only verse that some believe ties both repentance and baptism in CAUSING aphesis is Acts 2:38 ....

yet theologians on both sides debate the word "eis" ... or "for" to the cows come home .... some say it is a causal for ... others say its a resultant for ....

I will post my thoughts on the forgiveness is different from remission myth .... in a different thread as to give Mizpeh an opportunity to gather her thoughts and share her doctrinal support for her view on this thread ... and not get it tangled with a topic that is just as poignant.
Dan, I've never denied that forgiveness is linked with repentance. It just doesn't happen AT repentance.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:36 AM
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Dan, I've never denied that forgiveness is linked with repentance. It just doesn't happen AT repentance.
I know Mizpeh. Neither has Bernard or Segraves ... no serious bible scholar can hold this view, IMO and hold any credibility.

I started a thread on the aphesis issue ....

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=18356
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  #3  
Old 09-06-2008, 12:33 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
I know Mizpeh. Neither has Bernard or Segraves ... no serious bible scholar can hold this view, IMO and hold any credibility.

I started a thread on the aphesis issue ....

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=18356
I responded to the same thread you left on CARM. Not interested.

Your opinion is your opinion. Many serious Bible scholars are cessationists. Just their opinion as well.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2008, 05:27 PM
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

The argument is more than "for" as Daniel Segraves points out in a response to Cal Beisner
http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/2...-beisners.html

Cal:
Acts 2:38 does not teach that baptism is indispensable to remission of sins,(a) Grammatically, the command to be baptized is not connected with the promise of remission of sins. (i) The Greek verb translated repent is second person plural and in the active voice. (ii) The Greek verb translated be baptized is third person singular and in the passive voice. (iii) The Greek pronoun translated your (in “remission of your sins”) is second person plural. (iv) Therefore, the grammatical connection is between repent and for the remission of your sins, not between be baptized and for the remission of your sins” (page 58).

DS
In response, I would like to point out that there are two things to consider in interpreting Acts 2:38. First is the textual evidence; second is the grammar.

As it relates to the textual evidence, the Textus Receptus (Received Text), upon which the King James Version and the New King James Version are based, does not include the second “your” (humon), nor does the Majority Text. The critical text followed by most modern English translations does include the second “your” in the phrase “for the remission of your sins.” This is interesting, for the critical text usually prefers the shorter reading. In this case, the longer reading is adopted by the critical text on the view that the shorter reading (without the second “your”) is “conformation to the solemn formula of the Gospels, not an original shorter reading” (see Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament [Stuttgart: United Bible Societies, Corrected Edition, 1975], 301).

If the Textus Receptus and/or Majority Text reflect the original reading, there is no textual basis to suggest that the phrase “remission of sins” is connected only to repentance. But if the critical text reflects the original reading, does that connect “remission of your sins” only to repentance?

Grammatical

Petros [Peter] de [then] pros [to] autous [them: accusative masculine third person plural pronoun] Metanoesate [repent: aorist active imperative second person plural verb] phesin [said: present active indicative third person singular verb] kai [and] baptistheto [let be baptized: aorist passive imperative third person singular verb] hekastos [each: nominative masculine singular pronominal] humon [of you: genitive second person plural pronoun] epi [in: dative preposition] toi [the: dative neuter singular definite article] onomati [name: dative neuter singular noun] Iesou [Jesus: genitive masculine singular noun] Christou [Christ: genitive masculine singular noun] eis [for: accusative preposition] aphesin [forgiveness: accusative feminine singular noun] ton [of the: genitive feminine plural definite article] hamartion [sins: genitive feminine plural noun] humon [of you: genitive second person plural pronoun]. NOTE: This follows the critical Greek text; the second humon is not in the Textus Receptus or the Majority Text; it is found in the critical text].

Critique of Cal's own argument being not to sure himself

One wonders if he is completely convinced by his own argument, for he goes on to write: “…even if water baptism is connected with remission of sins, the sense is not that baptism is in order to obtain but rather with reference to (i.e., as a sign of, or because of) the remission of our sins. In other words, eis would denote only that baptism is related somehow to the remission of sins; it would not tell us the nature of that relationship” (page 59).

It seems that Beisner is willing to allow eis to mean “in order to obtain” only if the phrase “for the remission of sins” is connected exclusively to repentance. If it is connected to baptism, he is willing to allow only the meaning “with reference to.”

If the Critical Text is in view with it's second Humon
Beisner’s argument is based on the fact that in Greek grammar, pronouns must agree with their antecedents in number. If the antecedent is plural, the pronoun must be plural. Since the command to repent is in the second person plural, and since the command to be baptized is in the third person singular, he reasons that the pronoun “your” in the phrase “for the remission of your sins” must have the command to repent as its antecedent.

His argument fails on a simple point: The pronoun “your” [humon] in the phrase “for the remission of your sins” is the second pronoun “your” [humon] in the sentence. The first humon appears in all Greek texts in the phrase “let each of you [humon] be baptized.” In this phrase, the antecedent of humon is the phrase “let each…be baptized.” In other words, even though the command to be baptized is in the third person singular, the plural humon is used to show that this command is to all of those present, even though they are addressed individually. Everything Peter said in this verse was said to “them” [autous], a third person plural pronoun. The antecedent of the first humon is singular, but it is understood as plural because it refers to all present.

To summarize: If the second humon in Acts 2:38 is not original, Beisner’s argument ceases to exist. If it is original, there is no grammatical requirement that connects the remission of sins only to repentance. If the first humon is connected with baptism, and it is, there is no reason the second humon could not also be connected with baptism. In general, it seems best to understand everything Peter said to be addressed to the entire group present on the Day of Pentecost. All of them were to repent; each [another way of saying “all” with the emphasis on individual responsibility] was to be baptized, with both the repentance and baptism connected with the purpose of the remission of sins.

This is a partial quote so please read it all in context
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:02 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

So, any comments on the UPC articles of faith and the post by daniel Segraves?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:08 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
So, any comments on the UPC articles of faith and the post by daniel Segraves?
I liked the post by DS.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

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  #7  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:16 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
So, any comments on the UPC articles of faith and the post by daniel Segraves?
Praxeas, earlier in this thread I posted my thoughts on the inherent contradiction between the AOF's article on repentance and Bernard's (and Mizpeh's) view that repentance + baptism = full forgiveness ...

very early in this thread ..... here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...6&postcount=86

The article on repentance is almost straight from the original PCI manual.

In the past, I have shared this quote from Fudge's research on this article here:
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...?t=9314&page=3

He states:

From Christianity Without the Cross, Thomas Fudge, page 148

Quote:
“ … one factor acknowledged by all that the PCI was by far better organized of the two merging bodies. Therefore, it made sense not only to adopt certain doctrinal positions but also much of their polity and discipline as well. On the article, ‘pertaining to repentance and conversion’, 3 of the 4 statements therein can be traced to the PCI. The statement on ‘water baptism’ is also PCI in origin. On the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, all 9 statements in these articles are derived from the PCI. Three of four statements likewise come from the PCI, with the fourth statement previously alluded added in 1954. All of this means that of the 18 statements in these [original] articles, 16 are PCI in origin, one from the PAJC, and one was added after the merger.”

Footnote: David Bernard has done his denomination a great service by tracing out the origin and development of the “Articles of Faith”. While I do not always agree with the conclusions he draws, his work on this aspect of Oneness Pentecostal history is to be commended. See his Understanding the Articles of Faith, 26-39. In the terms of the entire Articles of Faith it can be shown that 75% of the statements come from the PCI. Of the 73 separate identical clauses the breakdown of origins is – PCI: 55, PAJC:5, New/Other: 13. It is worth pointing out that many of the clausal statements are effectively citations of the Biblical texts and are not to be understood as 20th century theological statements.
Dr. Segraves was adamant over 20 years ago about the contradictions found in the AOF as they apply to the common beliefs of most of the org's ministerial constituents ... here are some of his concerns:

Quote:
While the author recognizes and briefly discusses the differing opinions on this subject as they related to the 1945 merger of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ and the Pentecostal Church, Incorporated, and he notes that the statement "for the remission of sins" was later appended to the Fundamental Doctrine, he does not recognize what seems to some an inconsistency this amendment produced.

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International, under the heading "Repentance and Conversion," presently reads: "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins:1

The context concerns conversion, not the obtaining of forgiveness by a born-again believer, says nothing about water baptism, and would lead one to believe that repentance alone is sufficient to produce forgiveness of sins.2

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?

The Articles of Faith offer no Scripture to support the statement that "pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance."

While the author thoroughly examined the relationship of both repentance and water baptism as they relate to remission of sins in the text of Acts 2:38, he did not discuss the fact that the Fundamental Doctrine of the U.PC.I. does not necessarily endorse this idea.

The Fundamental Doctrine reads, "The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. ..:'4 The grammatical construction of the Fundamental Doctrine would indicate that the remission of sins is effected by the water baptism alone, rather than by repentance and water baptism coupled together, since repentance and water baptism are not joined by the conjunction "and" but. are instead separated by a comma.

Neither did the author discuss the significance of the word "full" in the Fundamental Doctrine. ("The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of full salvation...:') At the merging conference, "a motion was made to take the word `full' out of the Fundamental Doctrine, but was defeated:'5 The significance of this is obvious. Without this word, the Fundamental Doctrine would have read, "The basic and fundamental doctrine of this organization shall be the Bible standard of salvation. ..:' The word full is an adjective which modifies the noun salvation.

While it may be difficult for those who were not present to understand or appreciate the importance of this word to those involved in the merger, it obviously suggests that the majority present and voting viewed "full salvation" as one thing and "salvation" as another. A discussion of this element of U.PC.I. history would be a worthy subject for a subsequent symposium.
The schizophrenic nature of the varying and divergent soteriological views within the org seems to be encapsulated in the contradictory language found in the AOF dealing with repentance, water baptism and the Fundamental Doctrine.

I still find it interesting that Bernard being the chief apologist for the org in the last 20 some odd years .... blatantly contradicts an article of faith that appears to be a core doctrine ....
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2008, 08:37 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

I don't consider him "chief" Apologist...just the most published I guess.

However what does it mean by "full forgiveness" as oppossed to partial?

What do they mean by that?

I know Segraves spoke about a different kind of cleansing, that being a washing of the body of the sins of the flesh or something there from Col...

I wonder if there IS two kinds...on refering to our record in heaven and one refering to the very sins we carry IN ourselves if that is possible. For Peter spoke of the conscious and baptism
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-06-2008, 09:50 PM
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
So, any comments on the UPC articles of faith and the post by daniel Segraves?
In his summary, DS makes a case that baptism is "connected with the purpose of remission on sins" but he does not say how and in what way this connection exists.

Remission of sins is required to be made acceptable in God's eyes - hence remission is necessarily when justification occurs - IMHO.

The "connection" is one of public proclaimation for the new Christian. It is a part of the induction into the body, yet justification can and should have occurred proir to the baptism.

DS: To summarize: If the second humon in Acts 2:38 is not original, Beisner’s argument ceases to exist. If it is original, there is no grammatical requirement that connects the remission of sins only to repentance. If the first humon is connected with baptism, and it is, there is no reason the second humon could not also be connected with baptism. In general, it seems best to understand everything Peter said to be addressed to the entire group present on the Day of Pentecost. All of them were to repent; each [another way of saying “all” with the emphasis on individual responsibility] was to be baptized, with both the repentance and baptism connected with the purpose of the remission of sins.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2008, 09:27 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Both verses teach that our hearts/consciences are cleansed by the blood of Christ... IOW the blood is applied to our hearts and cleanses/purges our sins. It's not figurative but a real Spiritual experience. And this event happens when we are baptized in Jesus name. That was my point by quoting those verses.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works (sins) to serve the living God?

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


I'm at work again, but only for 8 hours. I'll support my premises with scripture later.
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