Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Trees don't make a sound when they are born and only trees bear fruit. The sound that a tree makes is only made with the wind which comes and goes as it pleases.

Isaiah 61:1-4

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.


Trees among other things, provide lumber for building. Jesus said he was going to build HIS church..... What's he going to build it out of! Righteous trees! God said, "Their righteosuness shall be of me". We are His workman ship, His building. For an habitation in the Spirit"!

Matt. 15:13
"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up".

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Amen, Sis. Alvear,

The first sign of life in a new born, natural or spiritual, is a SOUND! It may
be a long time before that "tree" bears fruit! It will need to be watered, nur-
tured, pruned, etc. before it becomes a "fruitful tree".

Here's the problem with the initial evidence doctrine. Too many folks want to play God. Because we are not able to know for sure who truly in their heart believes, and are too impatient to wait for the fruit, people want to force tongues into salvation so that THEY can determine who is saved and who is not.

What is the real FRUIT of this doctrine? BORAT

Though I don't at all agree with what he did, and believe He is probably guilty of blashpemy, He did expose just how weak that doctrine is, and how some "men of God" lack some very basic discernment. But He "made a sound". Whatever.

Originally Posted by Falla39

A new born-again babe
in Christ, SHOULD desire the sincere milk of the Word, that it may grow thereby.
A newborn natural babe, should desire mother's milk. Today the makers of
formula make a substitute for mother's milk. Nothing replaces the way GOD
made for babies, naturally or spiritually, to be nourished.

Yet some substitute sensationalism for the sincere milk of the Word. And this emotionalism is called "the Spirit", yet one of the FRUITS of the Spirit (according to the Bible, which by the way doesn't call tongues a fruit of the Spirit) is self-control. Guess how many times THAT message is preached in contradiction to "get jiggy with it for Jesus" and the such like.

Originally Posted by Falla39

1Cor.13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Strange, 1 Corinthians 13 is a chapter devoted to the importance of love in a Christian life, which just happens to be ANOTHER one of the FRUITS of the Spirit (BTW-tongues ISN'T a fruit of the Spirit according to the Bible).

Furthermore, Paul directly follows his teaching on love with a rebuke and correction of the Corinthians use of tongues in the church. Hardly something to build an initial evidence doctrine on. Reminds me of when AM said at Genreal Conference "Every one speak in tongues when I say NOW.....NOW!"

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Here's the problem with the initial evidence doctrine. Too many folks want to play God. Because we are not able to know for sure who truly in their heart believes, and are too impatient to wait for the fruit, people want to force tongues into salvation so that THEY can determine who is saved and who is not.

What is the real FRUIT of this doctrine? BORAT

Though I don't at all agree with what he did, and believe He is probably guilty of blashpemy, He did expose just how weak that doctrine is, and how some "men of God" lack some very basic discernment. But He "made a sound". Whatever.

Yet some substitute sensationalism for the sincere milk of the Word. And this emotionalism is called "the Spirit", yet one of the FRUITS of the Spirit (according to the Bible, which by the way doesn't call tongues a fruit of the Spirit) is self-control. Guess how many times THAT message is preached in contradiction to "get jiggy with it for Jesus" and the such like.

Strange, 1 Corinthians 13 is a chapter devoted to the importance of love in a Christian life, which just happens to be ANOTHER one of the FRUITS of the Spirit (BTW-tongues ISN'T a fruit of the Spirit according to the Bible).

Furthermore, Paul directly follows his teaching on love with a rebuke and correction of the Corinthians use of tongues in the church. Hardly something to build an initial evidence doctrine on. Reminds me of when AM said at Genreal Conference "Every one speak in tongues when I say NOW.....NOW!"

Trying to "orchestrate" a group to speak in tongues on command does not seem quite right, but when someone is receiving the Holy Ghost for the very first time it is out of their control when first speak in tongues as the initial evidence.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

James 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame....

(of course I know that those of you who don't accept that tongues is the initial evidence will try to reason it away, but that is already expected so we just "agree to disagree :-)

[jfrog]

All the individuals of Israel were not directly involved in Christ's crucifixion regardless of what Peter said. I don't believe Peter ever said they were though.

[Falla39]

Just as a mother giving birth in the natural, she listens for a certain sound,
a cry!
I believe the church (mother) also listens for a certain sound from the born-again
child of God. I believe other tongues are that sound of those born from above. It
is a sound from heaven! Natural man born again, from above. First that which is
natural, then the spiritual. Not the other way around. Except a MAN be born again....

I believe just as a woman and her doctor can together plan a natural abortion,
I believe that another spirit, can come into a church (mother) and perform spiritual
abortion, or even spiritual partial-birth abortion. Of course this procedure would be
planned by another spirit and the mother (church or individual) that accepted or
devised this "spiritual" plan. Who would have ever thought some "Christians"
would have ever accepted abortion, much less legalizing it.

I don't believe any kind of abortion was planned by Almighty GOD! An enemy
planned that!
Wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes!

Falla39

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Just as a mother giving birth in the natural, she listens for a certain sound,
a cry!
I believe the church (mother) also listens for a certain sound from the born-again
child of God. I believe other tongues are that sound of those born from above. It
is a sound from heaven! Natural man born again, from above. First that which is
natural, then the spiritual. Not the other way around. Except a MAN be born again....

I believe just as a woman and her doctor can together plan a natural abortion,
I believe that another spirit, can come into a church (mother) and perform spiritual
abortion, or even spiritual partial-birth abortion. Of course this procedure would be
planned by another spirit and the mother (church or individual) that accepted or
devised this "spiritual" plan. Who would have ever thought some "Christians"
would have ever accepted abortion, much less legalizing it.

I don't believe any kind of abortion was planned by Almighty GOD! An enemy
planned that!
Wouldn't want to be in any of their shoes!

Falla39

That's a nice analogy Sister Falla.

But, at the end of the day, it is simply an analogy and it is a flawed one IMO.

But taking it seriously for just a moment let's take a look.

We look for a sound. A cry. Okay... I'm not going to delve into that much.

But... if they don't cry... who is it that aborts them? Even partial birth abortions? It is those who look for the sound as absolute and total proof without which life is not believed to have occured.

Look... the baby is breathing... Yeah... but he didn't cry... so close. Too bad.

But there's life there. Yeah... but he didn't cry. Maybe he'll cry later.

And then those who believe that life can indeed bring a cry but that life does not absolutely need a cry to exist will be the ones who work with this life and bring it to full strength.

Not the cry seekers... for they do not believe life has come unless they hear a cry.

The term translated spirit is from the term Pneuma...meaning air. It takes air to cry... but a cry isn't the only expression of air. As long as there is air... there is spirit... if that air is used to cry... wonderful. But if there is no cry... but there is air (Pneuma... Spirit)... then there is life and I won't be caught denying that.

The cry is made possible by air.
Tongues are made possible by the Spirit (Pneuma)
When there is air/spirit/pneuma... and yet no cry... there is life and our job is to nurture that life. Not deny it's existence.

[Falla39]

Just as I related in an earlier post on this thread, about a man who was seeking for
the Holy Ghost. He seemed to be getting close to receiving the Spirit. Then he stopped coming to he alter altogether. His wife told me his Baptist mother, who visited a few times, told him he was saved. Said he didn't need to speak in tongues. Evidently he believed Momma, who had never never spoken in tongues either. Leading me to believe this was a type of spiritual abortion. Those who take the Word of God out of hearts that are hungry, are "aborting" the spiritual babe that was being formed inside.

No, sad to say, F--- never seemed the same after Momma interferred. I know of other cases very much the same. When that spirit that says you do not have to be born again as the scripture has said, gets into a church (through whatever means it came in), all those that believe that spirit, could be spiritually aborted! Abortion,. just as divorce, sins of all kinds, etc., etc., are in the church now.

We know some prominant denominal people in our city, who were supposely against abortion. UNTIL their son got a girl pregnant, who they didn't want their son to marry. They had great plans for his future and a baby out of wedlock, did not fit into THEIR plans. These parents met with the girl's parents and suggested abortion. They would not go along with this at all. They were of the same faith as the boy's parents. They told the boy's parents, they would have no part regarding abortion. They planned a simple, yet quick marriage. Right after they married, the girl miscarried. This couple have been married for many yrs and have four grown children and at least one grandchild. He is an attorney and she stayed home with her children all these yrs. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I sat in front of a precious lady last night at church. Sitting next to her was my youngest sister. They graduated from high school together in 1976. This lady and my sister were good friends in school and her younger sister was best friends with our eldest daughter. They graduated together.
Many years ago, this lady and her husband with their two small sons, came to the church my late father founded. Both of their families fought them, telling them all the reasons our church was wrong. They quit coming. Yrs later, life brought situations her way that caused her to call our eldest daughter. In desperation. She and her best friend, who also graduated with her and my youngest sister, came to church again, both received the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Both were baptized in Jesus Name. You could not convince them against this
experience. No one had to tell them they received the Holy Ghost/Spirit. Much joy came with the Spirit.
Suffice it to say I believe an enemy had done much to try to destroy the church of the Living God. But the gates of hell will never destroy the church Jesus is building or has built.
I have said none of this to be disrespectful to anyone!

Falla39

[Digging4Truth]

All thoughts from perception. Perception creates our reality for us sometimes.

Of 21 conversions in the word... 18 never mention tongues.

That's a lot of abortions right there.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

All thoughts from perception. Perception creates our reality for us sometimes.

Of 21 conversions in the word... 18 never mention tongues.

That's a lot of abortions right there.

Not mentioning tongues does not mean they did not occur. That is an argument from silence. It does not prove it nor disprove it. The point is that all major groups of people who were converted have tongues involved as known by the information provided. No need to repeat it every time it occurred.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not mentioning tongues does not mean they did not occur. That is an argument from silence. It does not prove it nor disprove it.

Agreed completely. Would that we could all agree on that.

Originally Posted by mfblume

The point is that all major groups of people who were converted have tongues involved as known by the information provided. No need to repeat it every time it occurred.

Indeed... because tongues is a sign for the unbeliever. Tongues occurred on the Day of Pentecost. It was the initial outpouring.

Tongues occurred when Cornelius and his household received the Holy Ghost. It was the initial outpouring on a Gentile.

Tongues occurred with the 12 men at Corinth who had already heard & believed all of the gospel they had heard not knowing that there was more. There were 12 of them... and they spoke with tongues & prophesied. Did they all speak with tongues AND all prophesy? Did some speak with tongues and some prophesy? Any answer to those questions is mere speculation.

Paul said he was glad he speaks with tongues more than all of them. I speak with tongues. I spoke with tongues last night.

I was raised pentecostal and attend a UPC church and to tell you the truth my upbringing wants to see it. It has been born & bred in me that when there's no tongues there's no ghost.

But I can't back that up beyond the shadow of any doubt in scripture. I can speculate... I can fill in my own blanks... but I cannot explicitly demonstrate that premise in scripture.

We state "receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues" like it's a scripture or something.

I wish EVERYBODY spoke in tongues... because I'm an unbeliver... and I need the sign. Let's face it... we pentecostals... we're ALL unbelievers... until we see that sign.

I fight with this need that has been bred in me. I was raised to look for that sign and I want everybody to do it... not just for me... but for themselves.

But my statement is this. At the end of the day I cannot explicitly demonstrate in the word of God that tongues is THE sign of the Holy Ghost without which there is no salvation.

I can't show it.

And until I can... I refuse to treat people as unsaved people because they haven't fulfilled my pentecostal upbringing. As I have mentioned before I have seen people get up from an altar CHANGED. Really, really changed with changes they had not been able to make in the whole of their lives and multiple big changes that were immediate which caused people not only from church but from work and school to be in awe asking "what got into you?".

But they never spoke in tongues... sometimes they even stammered some... but when they got up... feeling something they had never experienced in their lives... they were told...maybe next time and that was the beginning of the end for some of them as freshly tilled dirt that had been tilled and made fresh and new by the Spirit of God was quickly planted by God's own with a seed of doubt.

Tongues is A sign. I can demonstrate that without any doubt.

Tongues is THE sign without which there is no salvation? Sorry. I can't demonstrate that and I've never met anyone else who could either although I've met many who thought they could.