Saved Without A Pastor??

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Please show me where it says anywhere that a pastor has the rule over you, or me. Then explain how this passage of scripture below reconciles with your doctrine.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.20 Verses 25 to 28

[25] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
[26] But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
[27] And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many



I'm glad you asked. God is talking to the Hebrews who were about to be taken into Babylonian captivity. If you can produce scripture saying otherwise, I'd be glad to see it.



In that case you'd better get to sacrificing bulls and goats.




The soul that you reference above is not referring to the immortal soul IMO. It is referring to your life. This is distinguished from the rational immortal soul, according to Strong's. It appears to mean human life, as it does many times, but not always in the Bible.



I love Brother Benincsa, but I have a much greater advocate than he.

All this you said is all ridiculous. So you believe that the teacher, prophet, evangelist, and the apostle, and pastor will give account for your soul in a committee setting to God? And secondly who are they, do you even have 1 of the 5 fold ministry you submit to in your walk? I know the answer but I'm waiting.

[Tithesmeister]

I have looked up some statistics. I think it is interesting.

Out of the five-fold ministries, which are mentioned the most in the Bible?

Which are mentioned the least?

I'm going to break it down into OT and NT to provide a little bit of context for they who think it matters (which would include me). I am also going to search the base word, not all variations, just to make it easy.

Eph.4
[11] And he gave some, apostle;s and some, prophet;s and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Apostle

OT- 0

NT- 83

Prophet

OT- 327

NT- 163

Evangelist

OT- 0

NT- 3

Teacher

OT- 7

NT- 13

Pastor

OT- 8

NT- 1

It appears that prophet takes the award for most mentions, and . . .

Pastors take the award for the least mentioned of the five-fold ministries by a VERY large margin. In fact if pastor was mentioned one fewer time in the NT, it would not have been mentioned at all. The Evangelist (as in Benincasa) gets mentioned three times as many as the pastor in the NT!?

Does it seem to anyone that we are out of balance here?

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It certainly appears that way to me. He said "No one who is alive is saved yet", and then he said "You are saved". What am I missing?

How about what Jesus said?

Luke.7
[50] And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This woman was alive, and she was saved.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I have looked up some statistics. I think it is interesting.

Out of the five-fold ministries, which are mentioned the most in the Bible?

Which are mentioned the least?

I'm going to break it down into OT and NT to provide a little bit of context for they who think it matters (which would include me). I am also going to search the base word, not all variations, just to make it easy.

Eph.4
[11] And he gave some, apostle;s and some, prophet;s and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Apostle

OT- 0

NT- 83

Prophet

OT- 327

NT- 163

Evangelist

OT- 0

NT- 3

Teacher

OT- 7

NT- 13

Pastor

OT- 8

NT- 1

It appears that prophet takes the award for most mentions, and . . .

Pastors take the award for the least mentioned of the five-fold ministries by a VERY large margin. In fact if pastor was mentioned one fewer time in the NT, it would not have been mentioned at all. The Evangelist (as in Benincasa) gets mentioned three times as many as the pastor in the NT!?

Does it seem to anyone that we are out of balance here?

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

The Apostle is written in place of the Pastors because they were the Bishops to these churches. The letters and the book of Acts is all we have. You act like there is some detailed account of the church besides the book of Acts.

So since we don't live in the time of the Apostles this of course would go to a Pastor. Tell me how many Prophets you know? Who are they and do you submit to them? So do you submit to the Evangelist? Because you alluded the true question.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

All this you said is all ridiculous. So you believe that the teacher, prophet, evangelist, and the apostle, and pastor will give account for your soul in a committee setting to God?

No, brother. Jesus is my mediator and my advocate. Allow me to quote scripture.

Bible, King James Version

1John.2
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And . . .


Bible, King James Version

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1Tim.2
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb.8
[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb.9
[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb.12
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

And secondly who are they, do you even have 1 of the 5 fold ministry you submit to in your walk? I know the answer but I'm waiting.

Brother, if you know the answer, by all means give it. There is no need to ask.


I'm waiting . . .

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's an oldie and a goodie.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The Apostle is written in place of the Pastors because they were the Bishops to these churches. The letters and the book of Acts is all we have. You act like there is some detailed account of the church besides the book of Acts.

So since we don't live in the time of the Apostles this of course would go to a Pastor. Tell me how many Prophets you know? Who are they and do you submit to them? So do you submit to the Evangelist? Because you alluded the true question.

Please quote scripture?

I'm waiting . . .

It seems that the author of Ephesians repeated himself by putting apostles and pastors in the same verse? Is that what you're saying?

How about the prophets? Are there no more prophets?

Maybe we should take a break. I think your blood pressure is getting elevated.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Please quote scripture?

I'm waiting . . .

It seems that the author of Ephesians repeated himself by putting apostles and pastors in the same verse? Is that what you're saying?

How about the prophets? Are there no more prophets?

Maybe we should take a break. I think your blood pressure is getting elevated.

Theres definitely prophets but as I've seen it it can be anybody. I've met people who say they are in the office of a prophet, but a true one is rare. So anybody with the Holy Ghost can be used to prophesy, teach, evangelize, but only one can be the Pastor or the Apostle in the church.

Just the question stands which one are you submissive too? Or do you disregard Hebrews 13:17 altogether?

[houston]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Theres definitely prophets but as I've seen it it can be anybody. I've met people who say they are in the office of a prophet, but a true one is rare. So anybody with the Holy Ghost can be used to prophesy, teach, evangelize, but only one can be the Pastor or the Apostle in the church.

Just the question stands which one are you submissive too? Or do you disregard Hebrews 13:17 altogether?

There are no Apostles today.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by houston

There are no Apostles today.

That's what I was saying so then what's left? Only the pastor unless you are going to submit yourself to the Evangelist? But thanks for saying that, this guy is going to want scripture for it though... But case closed..