Is divorce a sin if no one was unfaithful?

Originally Posted by TRFrance

No, single people cannot commit adultery. But that doesnt prove anything.
Married people dont commit "fornication" the way we use the word today. But my point (which I'm sure you must understand by now) is that the original use of the greek word referred to sexual immorality in general, not just by unmarried people. This is an irrefutable fact, but maybe since the facts interfere with your theology you're having trouble accepting it.

I will answer your question even more thoroughly here sir. I'll expand further here with a post I made on a previous thread dealing with this:

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...6&postcount=28

Jax, I think the definition of fornication such as you've displayed above is a root cause of a lot of erroneous teaching on the topic.

The Greek word for "fornication" is porneia, which refers to a broad range of sexual immoral behavior in general. In fact, many modern Bible versions, such as the NIV and others, translate the word porneia as "sexual immorality" today. In its original use in the New Testament, the word porneia does not have the limited meaning of "sex before marriage (or outside of marriage)" that we commonly ascribe to it today in our contemporary/Western setting. (Porneia could refer to homosexual or heterosexual sexual immorality... and to both marital and non-marital sexual immorality.)

Thus, although there is a distinct Greek word for adultery (moicheia), adultery would still fall under the meaning of porneia. In short, all adultery (moicheia) is porneia, even though not all porneia (i.e sexual immorality) is necessarily adultery.

Regarding an earlier point you raised, there is no indication at all in scripture or in original Greek usage of these words, that the word porneia only applies to single people. To assert such would be to force a meaning into the text that's not naturally there. Some have used that logic/interpretation to say that when Jesus said a person may divorce for the cause of fornication , he was only refer to premarital sex that was discovered after the marriage, and wasnt referring to adultery committed after the marriage took place, since he didn't use the specific word for adultery in that text (Matt 5:32, and 19:9). But I believe the a fair minded reading of scripture shows this to be not the case. If the word porneiacovers sexual immorality as a whole, then it seems obvious to me that it must, and does, naturally include adultery as well.

TFRACC,, I have no problem with the truth... and I will be the first to acknowledge to original meaning of the Word Pornea...... but I will also prove by scriptures as I have already done... in the scriptures there was a distintinction in understanding between the two....... Fornication was referred to as before marriage and Adultery after marriage

Paul tells us that the single man commites fornication.... and to avoid doing so let him marry.. FLEE FORNICATION.. yet after marriage Paul always refers to infidelity as ADULTERY

So TRFRANC --- if Fornication simply means sexual immorality..... why did Paul teach that the married man would not be guilty of fornication if he is married... perhaps Adultery but not fornication

How do you flee fornication??? You get married....... but wait Paul.... I can still commit fornication if I am married... no you can commit Adultery.. but marriage will cause you to FLEE FORNICATION

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

I Cor 7:2 To avoid fornication let every man have his own wife. Is this to avoid him becoming a harlot? No, to avoid himself burning in lust.

WAIT A MINUTE ----- having a wife means you cannot now commit fornication? Do you really mean after you take the wife.. it would then become Adultery? Surely this is not what the Apostle was sayin

It would not be sexual immorality if he and her were married, correct.

However, if after he were married, he went out and lay with a harlot, he'd be committing adultery, as well as sexual immorality in the same act. Thus the writer could choose to refer to his act using either the Greek word porneia (sexual immorality) moicheia (adultery). That's as plain as the nose on your face.

Of course, since the King James version translates the word as fornication, and the word fornication is commonly used today to refer to unmarried people only, you have this idea that the Greek word porneia referred to unmarried people only. Thats bad exegesis, and bad doctrine.

If you weren't so blinded by your doctrinal position on this that you clearly wish to cling to, you would see this simple fact.

[rrford]

All fruit is grown. But not all fruit are bananas. Not all fruit are appples. If I eat an apple or a banana I have eaten fruit. But if I eat a banana I have not eaten an appple.



Scripturally, all sexual sin is porneia. Scripturally, not all sexual sin is fornication. Scripturally, not all sexual sin is adultery. Etc. etc. etc. If a man commits fornication he commits porneia. If he commits adultery he commits porneia. But if he commits adultery he does not commit fornication. The only way fornication has taken on a broader meaning is through modern interpretation. In it's scriptural distinctive it is much narrower in meaning.

In the teaching on marriage and divorce it is is abundantly clear, by simple implication of meaning, that Jesus was speaking of married couples when He was speaking of divorce for the cause of adultery only. Adultery can obviously only occur within the marriage relationship. That understanding alone gives the terminology clarity for interpretation's sake, IMO.

Wait brother... to avoid fornication.. get married......

after your married.. it goes beyond fornication.. it goes to Adultery

I bet you can't imagine that those translators which impeccable knowledge and after much debate among themselves concluded the true intent and meaning of the word fornication in scripture pertained to the unmarried?

Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Now brother.. in this scripture.... we see fornication and Adultery are TWO SEPERATE offenses to God...... if they both mean the same then why list them as seperate offenses?

Both words... same verse two totally seperate meanings

ADULTERY in the ORIGINAL
1) to commit adultery

a) to be an adulterer

b) to commit adultery with, have unlawful intercourse with another's wife

Why not just call it fornication? Because the BIBLE has always classified the two as seperate.

Again,, I stand with church history and translators much more brilliant than you and I... Fornication is for the unmarried and Adultery is for the married

both are considered two totally seperate offenses to God... Adultery... & Fornication

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

How do you flee fornication??? You get married....... but wait Paul.... I can still commit fornication if I am married... no you can commit Adultery.. but marriage will cause you to FLEE FORNICATION

Good grief, doc. Stop trying so hard.
Fleeing fornication does not simply mean getting married. Lets get real here.

Indeed, a man can flee fornication/sexual immorality (porneia) by getting married.
Or he you can flee it by staying holy and avoiding sexual temptations... without getting married.

But since porneia refers to sexual immorality, a married man who resists and flees from extra-marital sexual temptations is also fleeing porneia.

I notice you've chosen not to address [or use] the original meanings of the underlying words, (moicheia, pornieia) which I referred to several times here. For a man who seems to pride himself on knowledge and scholarship, that is something of a surprise... but then again, in this case, maybe it's not.

Anyway, at this point it doesn't matter any more. I've said all I have to say on this issue. Clearly you are not going to see something you don't want to see.

Paraphrasing something a wise man once said somewhere: "The hardest thing in the world is to convince a man to see something he has a vested interest in not seeing."

[TRFrance]

See RRFords post above, doc.
He makes the point clearly and succinctly.
Read it carefully.


Have a nice day.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

TFRACC,, I have no problem with the truth... and I will be the first to acknowledge to original meaning of the Word Pornea...... but I will also prove by scriptures as I have already done... in the scriptures there was a distintinction in understanding between the two....... Fornication was referred to as before marriage and Adultery after marriage

Paul tells us that the single man commites fornication.... and to avoid doing so let him marry.. FLEE FORNICATION.. yet after marriage Paul always refers to infidelity as ADULTERY

More extrabiblical hair splitting ... and the use of modern meanings to fit your paradigm

Pornea includes all types of of unfaithfulness ..... homosexuality, incest, beastiality .... and ADULTERY.

The Greek already has a word to mean adultery it is MOICHAO.

No one suggests they are interchangeable ... but that one includes the other.

Originally Posted by rrford

All fruit is grown. But not all fruit are bananas. Not all fruit are appples. If I eat an apple or a banana I have eaten fruit. But if I eat a banana I have not eaten an appple.



Scripturally, all sexual sin is porneia. Scripturally, not all sexual sin is fornication. Scripturally, not all sexual sin is adultery. Etc. etc. etc. If a man commits fornication he commits porneia. If he commits adultery he commits porneia. But if he commits adultery he does not commit fornication. The only way fornication has taken on a broader meaning is through modern interpretation. In it's scriptural distinctive it is much narrower in meaning.

In the teaching on marriage and divorce it is is abundantly clear, by simple implication of meaning, that Jesus was speaking of married couples when He was speaking of divorce for the cause of adultery only. Adultery can obviously only occur within the marriage relationship. That understanding alone gives the terminology clarity for interpretation's sake, IMO.

Brilliant post and EXACTLY what I believe....... in the highlighted above.... WHen Jesus said a man can divorce a woman for fornication..... using your own words... the married man or woman does NOT COMMIT FORNICATION....they commit Adultery and Jesus never gave us the reason of Adultery.. he said FORNICATION ... before the marriage