JP Don't Forget

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ron

And we have serious injuries, some disabling & one recently where a 16 year old died.

I think there is a difference in verbal jousting & drawing blood.

That is JMHO & I know others don't share it & that's fine, I could be wrong.

Right. There is a difference. Now that my feelings are hurt, I'm going to go pout for a while!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

Jim Yohe was in the vanguard of a new era of open communication among Oneness Pentecostals. The reality for all of us is that the world in which we live and serve God has been dramatically altered by the Internet, for the better and for the worse.

As Silent Service as said, Jim wanted a place for open discussion; in that respect Jim was a leader in dragging Oneness people into the Internet era. FCF was the first forum that I participated in, and had the privilege of posting with Jim Yohe there, but FCF wasn’t Jim’s first forum. My understanding was that Jim Yohe had started FCF because of the lack of opportunity for open discussion on other forums (I think that he held the “ban record” before he became Mr. FCF.)

In that respect, AFF is the forum that Jim Yohe began. Jim Yohe set out to challenge the status quo, to challenge preachers and saints alike to discuss, debate, and defend their views. I think that he had a passion to see the movement he loved move into the post modern era, and to provide a viable faith for the countless Jesus Name people that were and are struggling with traditions that don’t do well under Scriptural scrutiny.

Having said that, I think that FCF was not a sustainable experiment, due to several factors: one being that it challenged traditions that are much loved but that lack strong Scriptural foundations; and another being that it challenged preachers to meet questioners on equal footing without the weight of the pulpit or position. In the beginning, because it was new, people from every part of the spectrum of Oneness Pentecost joined the conversation with gusto, confident that they would convince others of their view of correct doctrine.

Although my saying so will probably be dismissed as merely partisan rhetoric, the traditional positions, particularly concerning standards, have not fared well in forum discussions. The lines of reasoning and theological grounds for many of the standards that Jim Yohe set out to challenge have not been successful in convincing questioners. This has caused many who hold to the traditional positions to withdraw from open discussion, believing that the end result of open conversation is to see people depart from standards.

It has somehow become popular to claim offence as a reason for withdrawing from this forum. In reality, neither side of the lib/con divide has any right to claim the high moral ground in terms of attitude and posting style, and the claim of “offence” as a reason for leaving looks like a smokescreen to those left behind. There is undeniable peer pressure among the more conservative brethren not to post here, and those who have posted have felt compelled to justify their being here to their peers.

In conclusion (Don’t you hate long posts? I rarely read them), the conservatives are doing their cause and the seekers who show up here a disservice by withdrawing into their closed forums. I feel, as did Jim Yohe, that it is important that there be a strong Acts 2:38 voice on the Internet. Young people in this day look to the Internet as one of their primary sources of information, and, when they ask questions, their first response is to click for answers. If the Acts 2:38 message is only proclaimed behind impenetrable barriers young people will be the first to miss the message. The reality of this day is that many people, and they’re not all young, are questioning standards, and they are going to show up here with their questions. If the conservatives withdraw from the conversation, the only answers that the questioners are going to find are going to be liberal opinions.

This forum, and the twenty first century, may not be a comfortable place for conservatives, but an important part of the battle for the heart and mind of this generation is going to be fought on the bandwidth battlefield. I would appeal to the conservative brethren not to abandon the battleground.

(Please excuse any typos and the garbled syntax. This post is too long for me to proofread without being put to sleep through the monotonous cadence of my own laboured and belaboured sentences.)

This post deserves bumping about every 24 hrs!

[EA]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Look, I"m not going to argue about this. You have your opinion, I have mine and the mere discussion of the problem is headed down the very same path that the issues themselves head down.

I say that it's ridiculous to say someone is going to hell for facial hair, you say if they truly believe that, we should respect their opinion.

I ask, how far should we go with that?

And, we're polarized.

When someone is on the liberal side, they're falling away from the doctrine. When they're on the ridiculously conservative side, we're supposed to put our stamp of approval on their non-Biblical views.

That's where I'm coming from - let's keep it fair on both sides.

How does saying someone's beliefs (which btw, are very mainstream Oneness Pentecostal) are "ridiculous" help the situation. You claim to love tolerance and open debate, and then you stoop to calling someone else's belief "ridiculous?" Does not compute.

Are we tolerant or not?

I have learned that intolerance is not confined to conservatives. Liberals are very maniacally mean-spirited and intolerant sometimes. No reference to you, of course.

[EA]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Michael - I think you've nailed it now - along with Mr. Steinway - - let it fall off you like water on a duck's back.

I believe the respect issue needs to be there, but honestly, there does seem to be some feelings a little too tweaked lately.

So Renda, if a poster tells you that you are backslidden and lost you would just let that roll of your back?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

So Renda, if a poster tells you that you are backslidden and lost you would just let that roll of your back?

Just don't use the word, reprobate.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

So Renda, if a poster tells you that you are backslidden and lost you would just let that roll of your back?

What do you mean IF?

It's happened several times here, so yes.

Does it sting a little - yep, but I know that's how that person believes and I don't live up to their beliefs. I also know that it's between God and myself not that poster.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Just don't use the word, reprobate.

Correct.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

How does saying someone's beliefs (which btw, are very mainstream Oneness Pentecostal) are "ridiculous" help the situation. You claim to love tolerance and open debate, and then you stoop to calling someone else's belief "ridiculous?" Does not compute.

Are we tolerant or not?

I have learned that intolerance is not confined to conservatives. Liberals are very maniacally mean-spirited and intolerant sometimes. No reference to you, of course.

I apologize if I've offended you with my choice of words, but frankly, I don't care if beliefs are "mainstream Pentecostal" or not, of they're not "mainstream Bible" even Jesus Himself didn't have much tolerance for them.

I'll quote Him directly:

Matthew 15
1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

As I've mentioned many times, I do not criticize anyone for their personal beliefs, convictions, standards, traditions, whatever you want to call it.

Where I do become very intolerant, just as Jesus did, is when they "make those things doctrine" and condemn me to hell for not following their own belief system.