Well, I guess I couldn't listen to this advice. I have never had the experience where God didn't tell me where I was going to live, who I was going to marry, that I would bear a son, what church to attend and how to pray for people.
By example, we were living in a particular house. I was cooking dinner and reached up for the salt, the Lord spoke to me, "You are moving from this place." The next day, our landlord came by and told me that he was going to sell the house because I refused to buy it. God let me know the day before so that I wouldn't be stressed out. That's particular care.
Another example, we were going to buy a car. My husband and I were looking around on opposite sides of the car lot. I spotted a car and knew it was the one we would buy. My husband walked up and asked, "Did you find a car?" I said, "Yes, I feel this is it." He said, "That's the one that I was settling on."
So, this is my life and how it has always worked for me. I don't know how to live any other way, I would be helpless.
I must be too stupid to think for myself, so He has always told me what to do. I just do it, learn and keep walking. He is all together lovely!!!
This is beautiful! If you came from some of the places people here have come from, you would not be able to live this way. THEY would be the deciding factor and decide IF you heard from God. Then YOU would either have to go to hell (in their opinion) for not listening to them or decide that God only speaks through them in the end.
Obedience to your elders, in some churches, equals obedience to God.
I am off to work but thought I would leave this sign first. I do not believe being Oneness Pentecostal is a sign one is more Christian than say a Southern Baptist may be...
Have a blessed day!
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I am off to work but thought I would leave this sign first. I do not believe being Oneness Pentecostal is a sign one is more Christian than say a Southern Baptist may be...
I think you're trivializing the long term effect of some of our standards. Once one begins to really read and study the Scriptures they will discover that many of our standards aren't found in Scripture... they are opinions of a previous generation of Pentecostals. They are traditions of men. At that point I became upset... not because I discovered that sleeve length didn't matter... but because the "man of God" told me that the Bible says that I'd go to Hell if I wore short sleeves. Essentially... he lied to me. When one has trusted the pulpit with their most intimate decisions and difficult times, some of their worse sins, and sacrificed time finances, and freedoms (like taking that job offered out of town that would have landed 6 figures)... only to discover that the pulpit isn't teaching actual Bible but mere opinions of a pastor or a previous generation of pastors... that hurts. That hurt leaves one feeling lied to and betrayed. I trusted him to teach me the Bible... but he dangled me and my family over Hell regarding beards, baseball games, sleeves, pants, and wedding bands. Now I find out that the Bible doesn't condemn any of these things. I can't trust him now. He betrayed a sacred trust to teach Scripture by teaching me TRADITIONS of men. To this day I view 90% of anything a preacher tells me with suspicion. If I hear a preacher condemn something or preach about something, I will personally go look it up and cross reference commentaries to make sure he isn't giving me HIS opinion instead of the Word of God.
Sadly, my wife's faith was crushed. She loves the Lord... but she's terrified of going to any church. She's afraid of being manipulated and emotionally tormented by men who will try to terrify her about things that aren't issues at all. Sadly I was one of those men who "lectured her" and "scolded" her like her dad instead of loving her like a husband over sleeve length and the second head coverings I "felt" like the Lord was commanding us to believe in. She lost faith in me as a spiritual leader ... because I was taught to base my faith on standards and go by my feelings. As a result I went as conservative as I could with all the traditions I learned. I thought it was all in the Word of God... but it was just the opinion of a man. It's entirely my fault that I allowed myself to be manipulted by such an abusive pulpit... but they should share some of the blame here because they failed to teach the Word and instead drilled opinion and tradition into us. That's why I've got some bitterness.
I faithfully served an ultra conservative church for nearly 12 years and because I couldn't make a weekly morning prayer service due to my job they removed me from ministry and the Pastor's wife yelled at my wife for being in "rebellion" when all she said was, "My husband and I can't make it." My wife came home sobbing and in hysterics. She was removed from choir, ladies group ministry, choral, and the outreach team. Why??? Spiritual abuse. Legalism. Men thinking they are God and can make law from the pulpit without regard to what the Word of God truly says.
So dear Sis. Falla.... please understand. It's not sleeve length or the condemnation of baseball games that has made so many people bitter. Its the fact that we've been terrified for no reason and lied to. I will never take my son to a church where the Pastor tells him he'll go to Hell over short sleeves. NEVER. Why? It's not biblical, and to expose him to such is to expose him to spiritual abuse.
Our words and actions have effects on people. You might think it doesn't matter to dangle someone over Hell regarding sleeve length or facial hair... but when that person studies the Bible for themselves and finds out how that's not said in Scripture... they'll loose all faith in the pulpit... and sadly, some will loose faith completely.
I love ya sis. I just have to try to communicate some of my feelings on the matter, because honestly, if the Bible condemned sports, I'd never go to a ball game again. But truth be told... it doesn't. Those who says that it does are lying to us.
Wow! Great post...I understand your wife's feelings and I will pray that God helps her in the way that only HE can! Again, wow! I don't think we realize often enough how our words and actions do affect people. I don't post much on here because I'm always afraid that I'm going to say the wrong thing or someone is going to take what I said in a wrong way and be offended. Thank you for writing a BALANCED post. That to me is the most important thing!
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"Just a sinner saved by grace!"
I was treated horribly by leadership. And I did see it through--for a little while. We didn't just "cut and run." We even gave a 30 day notice before leaving, since we were on staff, and I personally endured being yelled at from the pulpit, things like, "I don't care WHO your Mama and Daddy are--you're going to split the pit if you don't correct that rebellious attitude." A rebellious attitude which I didn't even HAVE, I might add.
Not once did I EVER speak to another person in that church about the issues we were facing, not even to my friends, except for one who was already attending another church. I did not ONCE talk back to or sass the pastor or his wife. I didn't even look at them funny. I didn't even say a word on our last night in service when the pastor's wife walked up to me, gave me a sickeningly sweet hug, and in a sudden show of solidarity, whispered in my ear that I should watch out--my husband might fall back into false doctrine. I remember being so numb, I couldn't have said anything, even if the words had appeared in my brain--which they didn't until much, much later.
And, like you, years later, I have been entirely vindicated--without my hand ever having to stir the pot. So, PO, I agree. I had to hold out and let God fight my battles. But that does not mean I am weak or wrong for not staying to endure actual harm at the hands of ignorant, spiritually weak, self-serving people. I DID find safe shelter, both in the form of a new church, AND in private with God. And I let Him sort out the rest.
Even now, over 10 years later, I rarely even speak the name of my pastor and his wife. If I do discuss things generically, like right now, I keep it anonymous, and I have no wish to slander the people personally responsible, even though I know enough to rip them to shreds among their peers and their community--and in some cases, even from a legal standpoint.
If God led you to stay, then you did the right thing. He did no such thing with us, and so we also are confident that we did the right thing. At the time, my only backbone was my husband, and I'm so glad he behaved like the godly leader he is and informed me of his decisions, rather than letting me sit and steep in a toxic tea of corruption while I tried to see through a cloud. It's quite possible that God knew I wouldn't be able to handle it, so he placed a man in my life who would lead me right out of the situation.
Regardless, the point is, the same God who is leading you is leading me, and has led me--and my family--for many years.
My father didn't "cut and run" whenever people treated THIS PK badly, either. But there were times when he should have placed the well being of his family above his secondary ministry to the congregation. And that's just plain and simple truth.
Oh, I can sooo relate to this one! I wish for just once my father would have taken a stand and walked away...*sigh* But he didn't...he put ministry first and family second.
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"Just a sinner saved by grace!"
Oh, I can sooo relate to this one! I wish for just once my father would have taken a stand and walked away...*sigh* But he didn't...he put ministry first and family second.
Fortunately though, church ministry and pastoral duties don't necessarily = God.
That's what they say, when these things are brought up. Everyone says their priorities are 1) God, 2) family, 3) church. But what does that really mean? In what real-life way would someone put God first, ahead of family? If one is a pastor, wouldn't it mean putting his pastoral duties ahead of his family's needs, at least to some extent? I mean, his pastoral duties are for God, right? If one is not a pastor, might one go out on the street witnessing to people, rather than work to put food on the table? OK, that was silly. Or was it? Well, give me a non-silly example, someone?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I fear all of us with UPCI-related pasts obsess ourselves over these things -- and while denominational churches are preaching "be holy, be separate, don't love this world"... we plug our ears. I fear this. I fear it greatly.
Also, Aquilla, not all cons are manipulating, mean-spirited and ugly about their standards. Probably most of them are, so I'll give you that much ground. But the church I'm acquainted with -- they were gentlemen: "this is how we see it, this is why we see it that way, we have good fruit with this recipe... we understand if you can't make this your church after this, but if you like this community, this is all part of it." They were gracious -- though I disagreed with them in a major way about their biblical interpretation.
Have a blessed day!
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