Bernard continues his rewrite of UPC history

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You are the one worried about history not me. Whats written in the Bible is good enough for me. Everything else must be judged against it. I would not be moved from that if there really wasn't one.

This thread is about history.

So which is it, did your theological views burst on the scene in the 20th century or were they practiced by people for 2000 years?

[Max Cosme]

Penn expresses that Quakers believe the water in John 3 is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. A common evangelical view, even today. Not even close to a Water and Spirit view.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BDb...page&q&f=false

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Which groups? Groups that affirmed "oneness" and baptism in Jesus Name or "full package"? I can't produce a full package group, nor do I know of anyone who can legitimately produce one, as for groups affirming the twofold doctrine of oneness and water baptism in JN, its well known that the primative church didn't believe in the trinity and baptized invoking the name of Jesus. This is common knowledge, affirmed by church historians, biblical and secular encyclapedias.

It is well known...so give me some references.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Max Cosme

Penn expresses that Quakers believe the water in John 3 is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. A common evangelical view, even today.

Really? That's my take on it. I was not aware that it's a common evangelical view.

[Sabby]

Okay,back to the history of the merger.
This discussion is about the relevance of the PCI at the merger. If the relevance can be minimized it bolsters the "might makes right" position that seems to be DKB's direction.
I talked to Bobby _______ today, a protege of A.D. Gurley. Gurley was PCI prior to the merger. He was considered "soft" on the message, but baptized thousands. According to _______, Gurley voted against the merger because he could forsee problems with a merger with hardliners. Also according to _______ the PCI had the most ministers at the merger.
They (PCI) were clearly the more evangelistically minded, another point that _______ mentioned. (which explains the high % of missionaries coming out of Conqueror's Bible College* )
I digress.
According to Loren Yadon (I spoke to him last year), most of the assets at the merger including the Herald were PCI, and quoting his uncle C.Haskell, the merger was "like oil and water and should never have happened". It was at least a 50/50 split in membership if anything.
I bugs me that DKB is trying to rewrite history, but I'm better off letting it go. It is what it is, and the UPC is who they are. They apparently rammed the A.S. down everyone's throat and are STILL not satisfied. They will choke on a noose of their own making.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Give me one group older than the 20th Century who believed both of this things, we can start with just one and see how connected these two doctrines are to the past.

Excuse me, but as I said, it does not matter if some notable groups taught it or not. The Bible clearly teaches them, and God has preserved His Word for all that time. You want to look to man for validation of a doctrine, to see if a man taught it. Look to scripture and see what it says instead. Popularity does not make something biblical. Now, can we discuss the biblical doctrine, or is your focus on man?

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Max Cosme

Penn expresses that Quakers believe the water in John 3 is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. A common evangelical view, even today. Not even close to a Water and Spirit view.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BDb...page&q&f=false

Wait what? "Water" in John 3 is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit?

So John 3 really means you must be born again of Holy Spirit and Spirit? Spirit and Spirit huh? Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again of the spirit and the spirit? Twice of the spirit?

Did this come form the Department of Redundancy Department?

Is being born again of the spirit once not enough? You have to do it twice or else you didn't do it right?

It seems to me that the much simpler explanation of JOhn 3 is exactly what OP have been preaching it as for years. Water and Spirit = water baptism and Holy Ghost infilling. Funny...that's exactly what we see happening in Acts as a demonstration of being born again.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Wait what? "Water" in John 3 is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit?

So John 3 really means you must be born again of Holy Spirit and Spirit? Spirit and Spirit huh? Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again of the spirit and the spirit? Twice of the spirit?

Did this come form the Department of Redundancy Department?

Is being born again of the spirit once not enough? You have to do it twice or else you didn't do it right?

It seems to me that the much simpler explanation of JOhn 3 is exactly what OP have been preaching it as for years. Water and Spirit = water baptism and Holy Ghost infilling. Funny...that's exactly what we see happening in Acts as a demonstration of being born again.

If you consider the translation of "kai" in the greek which can be either AND or EVEN. Then, we can see a case of where Water would be a metaphor of the Holy Spirit. Especially considering that Jesus uses Water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in other scriptures.

In other words (reading it this way):

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water, EVEN of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Considering that Jesus uses Water as metaphor for the Holy Spirit in other scriptures, the argument above has some merit to it

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

John 7
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Having said that, regardless of the interpretation of John 3:5, water baptism is part of the RESPONSE to the gospel of Jesus Christ (not the gospel) as evidenced in Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:47, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5, 1 Cor 1:13-17,1 Pet 3:21, etc

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Okay,back to the history of the merger.
This discussion is about the relevance of the PCI at the merger. If the relevance can be minimized it bolsters the "might makes right" position that seems to be DKB's direction.
I talked to Bobby _______ today, a protege of A.D. Gurley. Gurley was PCI prior to the merger. He was considered "soft" on the message, but baptized thousands. According to _______, Gurley voted against the merger because he could forsee problems with a merger with hardliners. Also according to _______ the PCI had the most ministers at the merger.
They (PCI) were clearly the more evangelistically minded, another point that _______ mentioned. (which explains the high % of missionaries coming out of Conqueror's Bible College* )
I digress.
According to Loren Yadon (I spoke to him last year), most of the assets at the merger including the Herald were PCI, and quoting his uncle C.Haskell, the merger was "like oil and water and should never have happened". It was at least a 50/50 split in membership if anything.
I bugs me that DKB is trying to rewrite history, but I'm better off letting it go. It is what it is, and the UPC is who they are. They apparently rammed the A.S. down everyone's throat and are STILL not satisfied. They will choke on a noose of their own making.

I think you are right.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Okay,back to the history of the merger.
This discussion is about the relevance of the PCI at the merger. If the relevance can be minimized it bolsters the "might makes right" position that seems to be DKB's direction.
I talked to Bobby _______ today, a protege of A.D. Gurley. Gurley was PCI prior to the merger. He was considered "soft" on the message, but baptized thousands. According to _______, Gurley voted against the merger because he could forsee problems with a merger with hardliners. Also according to _______ the PCI had the most ministers at the merger.
They (PCI) were clearly the more evangelistically minded, another point that _______ mentioned. (which explains the high % of missionaries coming out of Conqueror's Bible College* )
I digress.
According to Loren Yadon (I spoke to him last year), most of the assets at the merger including the Herald were PCI, and quoting his uncle C.Haskell, the merger was "like oil and water and should never have happened". It was at least a 50/50 split in membership if anything.
I bugs me that DKB is trying to rewrite history, but I'm better off letting it go. It is what it is, and the UPC is who they are. They apparently rammed the A.S. down everyone's throat and are STILL not satisfied. They will choke on a noose of their own making.

Thank you, Sabby, for sharing your insight on this.

This is something either unknown or covered up by so many over the years so they can present "history" according to their viewpoint.