Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

I ask you to focus on what I said here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=163

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=164

It, I think, is the basis of our differences.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sinners will find Christ through our love, yes! They cannot see God, but they can see us love others. But it's not sinners themselves loving in order to find God. Taht's what you missed me saying.

this all sounds good, until it is shown that sinners actually find condemnation through a Christian's love; and drone bombs.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Faith in the blood of Jesus for remission of sins is what saves. Not faith in anything else.

again, this sounds excellent, and the words cannot be denied--but they can be tested. Thankfully, Scripture provides many other passages on "what saves" to illuminate what faith is; i have been posting them. If you think of any pertinent ones, by all means quote them.

I will wade through those two posts and see if any of it is new.

[shazeep]

but all i am seeing is "proof" that salvation is not of works. Amen. Works done for salvation are law, not grace, and there is a simple test to determine the efficacy of one's works, as i have outlined to the best of my understanding--from personal experience--although there certainly might be other valid reflections upon this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

this all sounds good, until it is shown that sinners actually find condemnation through a Christian's love; and drone bombs.

But there are always people who fail to show the right fruit. I've always agreed with that. We really must be missing a fundamental difference in what we think about certain issues. And until those issues are revealed and we see the distinction between our views, all else makes no sense. Let's focus on those things.

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said God so loved the world He gave His son? What does it mean that we must believe in this to have everlasting life?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but all i am seeing is "proof" that salvation is not of works. Amen. Works done for salvation are law, not grace, and there is a simple test to determine the efficacy of one's works, as i have outlined to the best of my understanding--from personal experience--although there certainly might be other valid reflections upon this.

But what about the correct faith BEFORE we get a moment to commit any works that prove that faith? What is the exact nature of that faith in your mind?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But there are always people who fail to show the right fruit. I've always agreed with that. We really must be missing a fundamental difference in what we think about certain issues. And until those issues are revealed and we see the distinction between our views, all else makes no sense. Let's focus on those things.

What do you believe Jesus meant when He said God so loved the world He gave His son? What does it mean that we must believe in this to have everlasting life?

well to that, i can say that i began with your belief, and now suspect it. It is virtually no longer welcome. If it were a matter of some failing to display the right fruit, as i believed for...ever, that would be one thing. But i have come to see it as something different; as essentially subordinating love to law.

This might sound harsh, written in a post; but it is undeniable that all i would need to be considered "saved" by you is that i agree with what you are saying. And if i disagree, i am "lost."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But what about the correct faith BEFORE we get a moment to commit any works that prove that faith?

that faith--without works--is dead. It remains an ideal; some pretty words. It seems a fabulous way to produce divisions, and accusers; and rarely a changed heart, even though it sounds like it should do the opposite. One is universally counseled to continue the pursuit of happiness after this "conversion," as presented by an affiliated church.

Hmm, what else...ah, someone with that faith becomes exceedingly obnoxious to everyone around them, some unmitigated superiority seems to accompany their diatribes...etc etc. The accepted cliches. They are known by their fruit, iow, those who have that faith. I have yet to work with one in my 7 years of volunteering, now that i think about it.

I'm trying to think of any redeeming qualities of those types...and I'm still trying

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well to that, i can say that i began with your belief, and now suspect it. It is virtually no longer welcome. If it were a matter of some failing to display the right fruit, as i believed for...ever, that would be one thing. But i have come to see it as something different; as essentially subordinating love to law.

This might sound harsh, written in a post; but it is undeniable that all i would need to be considered "saved" by you is that i agree with what you are saying. And if i disagree, i am "lost."

Not true. It's not what I say. I'm always referring you to the word and pointing you there discuss it. But you consistently refuse. That's trolling.

You once again failed to answer me. I doubt you ever will.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not true. It's not what I say.

what you say, what the church says, what ever. My meaning is that it is what i say that determines my acceptance or rejection. If i talk right, and have no works, that is perfectly acceptable to most any "Christian" affiliated church i might attend.