More on Skirts

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Aquilla, I never said that you or anyone else will attain perfection.

Matthew 5:48 is Jesus making a statement that we are to be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect. The Greek is τέλειος,, which means to come to the end, complete, finished, full age, matured to adulthood. We do a great disservice to people when we try to make excuses for the words of Jesus Christ. This is not achieved by human discipline. Romans 12:2 instructs us that we are to be renewed in our mind, a metamorphosis as a caterpillar transforms into something other than a worm. The writer of Romans tells us to prove, show evidence which is good, and acceptable, the perfect, will of God. In James 3:2 the writer explains that in many things we offend everyone. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, also able to restrain the entire body. the writer of 2 Corinthians 7:1 points out clearly that since we have God's promises Having therefore these promises, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of carnality and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. The writer of 1 John 3:3 says the exact same thing, but tells you who you are to be like. The writer of 1 John 3:3 tells us to purify yourself as Jesus Christ is pure. Romans 12:1-2 tells us how this is achieved by making your body a live sacrifice unto God, which is what you were bought for by Jesus Christ. To serve Him totally, completely, that we are not our own. Not being conformed to this world: but transformed by the renewing of your mind, that may show evidence what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. The writer of Hebrews 5:13-14 explains why this is needful, "For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn't know how to do what is right. Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

Yet, instead of encouraging the saint of God to go forward, we tell them that no one can get it together. That everyone is banged up, and will continue to enter the wheel of Samsara until we are reincarnated in the next life? I know, no Apostolic says that, but that is what the Hindu Guru sells his devotees. No, Jesus Christ is writing this epistle to be read of all men, He is the author and FINISHER of our faith. What He started He will complete. We do our part, and He does His part. Jesus wouldn't tell people who hand't even received the Holy Ghost baptism yet, to be as perfect as the FATHER, if He had no clue how to get them there.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It is God's grace that we must live by. Everytime that a person falls they must repent to God and get up again. The thing is God is not fooled by false repentance. People that are repentant don't live in homosexuality. I understand that we all struggle in the flesh, but struggling in the flesh is not habitually sinning.

Exactly, but show them the word that they can be mature. That they will not always be in spiritual diapers. That they can be weened from nursing and go on to strong meat. Encourage to go forward, to get up and stay up not through human discipline but through Jesus Christ transforming our minds to full maturity.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

As far as all the imperfect men in your past. Everyone is human. We get angry, we say things offensive, we covet things we see, etc. Those are inward things that each of us contend with. Before the Lord saved me I didn't even recognize those things working on me, but now I am aware of my opposition. You said, you felt miserable inside because of the carnal nature. Evidently something inside of you desires more.

How can a person live in habitual sin with the Holy Ghost always crying out to them NO. I understand falling at moments, but the moment that you convince yourself that you are ok in your sin. God will not always strive with man.

It is not about convincing ourselves, it is about the work of the cross, the power of Jesus Christ. Our yielding to Him as a student, a servant, ready to take what He is telling us to do. Yes, God will not always strive with man, but He gave us an advocate who has defended us through His work. Now we have full access to fully put on the mind of Christ. To walk in the light as He is in the light.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I was once told, "Whatever you need, you'll find it in the Holy Ghost."

And surprise, surprise, surprise, that man was right as rain.

I was told the same thing?

You sure we didn't meet before?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You need someone who is actually sanctified to show you how it's done? I thought Jesus was pretty sanctified.

Oh, you mean He's not enough? You need Jesus plus... somebody else? Or maybe its more like "Yeah, I know bout Jesus, but here in the REAL world..."? Like Jesus is really just a neat story but not enough?

God says we must be holy. If EVERY.BODY.ELSE failed to be holy, it wouldn't change anything.

God rewards those who diligently seek Him, not those who whine to Him. I've had to learn that lesson the hard way.

2 Corinthians 10:12

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

To follow anyone as the example of perfection isn't how this is done. Even if everyone was class A Apostolic, we still must keep our eyes on the LORD.

Sister Trusie Rooks would always tell my wife, "keep your eyes on the Lord"

Good advise.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Evang.Benincasa;1489886]

Matthew 5:48 is Jesus making a statement that we are to be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect. The Greek is τέλειος,, which means to come to the end, complete, finished, full age, matured to adulthood.

If you read all of the verses before vs 48 you get the details of what God expects of us in being perfect. One thing you and I both know is that Jesus audience was already a bunch of moral failures. Perfection was already gone out the window, but through the redemption that Christ bought we could go on to being perfect.

We do a great disservice to people when we try to make excuses for the words of Jesus Christ. This is not achieved by human discipline.

I don't make excuses for the words of Jesus at least not intentionally. I sincerely don't think that what Jesus meant in mathew 5 about being perfect and what comes to mind when we think perfect are the same thing. When you and I say to someone you must be perfect to serve God they automatically think to being flawless. I blew that the first day of being born again.

We are made perfect only through Christ. I recently come across the scripture about laying up treassures in heaven. The verses go on to say if your eye be single the whole body will full of light. It took some thought, what in the world does it mean for your eye to be single. Then I stumbled across the phrase singlenss of heart which means being totally devoted to something. Single is also whole or even completely. If our eye be single is in other words our sight is totally or wholly fixed on God and His righteousness then we wil be full of light.

This is exactly the perfection that God wants us to come to. We put all our pocus on God and not on things of this world. We don't focus on faults and failures, but we keep our eyes on Jesus.

Romans 12:2 instructs us that we are to be renewed in our mind, a metamorphosis as a caterpillar transforms into something other than a worm. The writer of Romans tells us to prove, show evidence which is good, and acceptable, the perfect, will of God. In James 3:2 the writer explains that in many things we offend everyone. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, also able to restrain the entire body. the writer of 2 Corinthians 7:1 points out clearly that since we have God's promises Having therefore these promises, we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of carnality and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. The writer of 1 John 3:3 says the exact same thing, but tells you who you are to be like. The writer of 1 John 3:3 tells us to purify yourself as Jesus Christ is pure. Romans 12:1-2 tells us how this is achieved by making your body a live sacrifice unto God, which is what you were bought for by Jesus Christ. To serve Him totally, completely, that we are not our own. Not being conformed to this world: but transformed by the renewing of your mind, that may show evidence what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. The writer of Hebrews 5:13-14 explains why this is needful, "For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn't know how to do what is right. Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

I don't disagree with you on any of this nor do I try to get converts ready to fail in advance. I spoke to someone today addicted to drugs. My admonition is that God will set you free. I always add that a person must desire that freedom. God is not going to steal possession of our bodies and live our lives for us though.

Yet, instead of encouraging the saint of God to go forward, we tell them that no one can get it together. That everyone is banged up, and will continue to enter the wheel of Samsara until we are reincarnated in the next life? I know, no Apostolic says that, but that is what the Hindu Guru sells his devotees. No, Jesus Christ is writing this epistle to be read of all men, He is the author and FINISHER of our faith. What He started He will complete. We do our part, and He does His part. Jesus wouldn't tell people who hand't even received the Holy Ghost baptism yet, to be as perfect as the FATHER, if He had no clue how to get them there.

Sounds like a gloomy conversion. When I came to God I was classified and alcholic by carey counseling. I had lost my license for DUI, Evading Arrest, Wreckless Driving. I had watched my young life go down the drain and was contemplating suicide. I came to church as a favor to my grandma. All Christians where hypocrites so I had no desire to be there (right). I had a chip on my shoulder bigger then I was.

Something got hold of me that day that changed my life. It changed the way I walk, talk, dress, act, etc.... 16 years later and I am preaching the gospel to others baptizing others in the name of Jesus. I am not at all teaching people that they can't do better. I was addressing Aquilla, about mistakes. I have made mistakes in the past 16 years, but that doesn't change who that I am. A child of God. As a child of God I don't go around expecting to make mistakes, but as it happens I am not going to let the enemy torment me over it I am going to repent and by the grace of God overcome.

Exactly, but show them the word that they can be mature. That they will not always be in spiritual diapers. That they can be weened from nursing and go on to strong meat. Encourage to go forward, to get up and stay up not through human discipline but through Jesus Christ transforming our minds to full maturity.

Absolutely, but you if have watched a baby begin walk. It is going to take some spills, that is all in learning. That doesn't stop them from getting up. Being wholly made up is not about never fallling it is about never loosing sight of God. This is not the same as living in disobedience.

It is not about convincing ourselves, it is about the work of the cross, the power of Jesus Christ. Our yielding to Him as a student, a servant, ready to take what He is telling us to do. Yes, God will not always strive with man, but He gave us an advocate who has defended us through His work. Now we have full access to fully put on the mind of Christ. To walk in the light as He is in the light

I assure you that I agree. My whole point in the comment about not attaining perfection was in regards to the inward struggle that we all have to face at times. We are made perfect through Christ alone, and not by our own merits. Although, people who live in willfuly sin are not in Christ and have not even begun the journey.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If you read all of the verses before vs 48 you get the details of what God expects of us in being perfect. One thing you and I both know is that Jesus audience was already a bunch of moral failures. Perfection was already gone out the window, but through the redemption that Christ bought we could go on to being perfect.

I gave you the Greek. I explained the Greek. The Greek word means "mature" in the context Jesus is using it. Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteously blameless. The writer of Luke goes out of his way to use two words δίκαιος interpreted by the KJV translators as the English word righteous. The Greek δίκαιος means just, right, correct, observant of custom, orderly, civilized within the law, exact, specific, real, and genuine. But that word isn't the kicker, the kicker is the word used in the following sentence. the Greek word ἄμεμπτοι the only way one can properly interpret this word is with this definition to be above reproach because you are morally pure. So, with that if Zachariah and Elizabeth were standing in front of Jesus when he said "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" he would of pointed over to them? Why? Because the prophets tell us that God was only coming from a remnant. The "all Israel" that would be saved was the believing remnant which Paul was a part. But, let's return to the rest of Luke 1:6.
What was Zachariah and Elizabeth morally pure concerning? πορευόμενοι ἐν πάσαις ταῖς ἐντολαῖς καὶ δικαιώμασιν τοῦ κυρίου ἄμεμπτοι. Which is Walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS. God didn't send the Angel Gabriel to the biggest loser priest God could find. This was a brother who was doing right, he was morally pure, and even when he questioned the testimony of the holy messenger he still didn't get his blameless status taken away. He was corrected by being made mute. At times when people have bad situations in their lives (like Job) we have a tendency to judge the person as being bad in the situation instead of the bad situation being judged for what it is. So, Zachariah and Elizabeth morally pure, careful to obey all of the Lord's commandments and regulations without fault.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't make excuses for the words of Jesus at least not intentionally.

I'm sorry that I posted that, I know YOU don't make excuses for Jesus' words.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I sincerely don't think that what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:48 about being perfect and what comes to mind when we think perfect are the same thing.

Sorry, again. I felt that I adequately explained the use of the Greek τέλειος, which when used in Jesus' context it means completely matured. I'm a master mechanic, I don't make the same errors I did, when I was starting out. To be able to called "master" in any vocation one needs to achieve completeness, achieving the highest grade. Where excuses are made are made through emotions which end up excusing the words of Christ. Jimmy, can't get it together, he keeps messing up. Because when we get down to the nucleus of the problem. Is that Jimmy won't deny his own human will. He pretty much loves certain things which are a part of his human nature. Therefore when he is required to do a good repair, he takes the low road. Instead of changing your spark plugs, he leaves your old plugs in. Because he knows you won't notice. Because he changed the wires and cap. He didn't change your plugs because on your model the plugs are really hard to reach. Furthermore, on your type of motor the plugs may break, and the mechanic must use a specialty tool to remove them. Jimmy changes the oil, but just wipes off the filter. He knows you won't notice, or ever find out. Unless you happen to end up with another mechanic. These aren't just an issue of human nature, but an issue of character flaws. In Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech he said this, "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." Content of character is what this is all about. Jesus comes inside us and gives us a character change. He leads and guides us as a good master mechanic. He is the service writer on the job and gives us our repair order on what we need to fix. It is all about to us whether we want to do a good job, even if no one notices. Or a bad job and hope that no one notices. Puritans and Classical Calvinists held a way more higher standard then they do now. But, the Puritan ethic in this country was greatly modified. Churches which claim to be Calvinists became hyper Calvinists, and morphed into saved in sin, stay in sin. While other followers never really focused on that and soldiered on to be really exceptionally good citizens. The remainder who have huge character flaws struggle. Yet, instead of pointing the strugglers in the proper direction to pray through, while you pray with them, and support them with book, chapter, and verse that they can fly higher. That they can rebuild carburetors, build an addition to a home all by themselves, with the utmost skill and pride in their work. They are told the opposite. They are told that we are all lousy mechanics. That you couldn't get a quality rebuild or even your house painted properly for all the Gumbo in Louisiana. In the immortal words of Brother Erick Peterson, as he turned to me and said "elder, people get off track, but they always have full option to get back on track." That's it, free will, free will to do a whole host of things, good, bad, evil, despicable, or sweet as Louisiana banana pudding. Perfect is mature, starting out a babe drinking milk, going on to a son, and then coming to the place where you are a father.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

When you and I say to someone you must be perfect to serve God they automatically think to being flawless. I blew that the first day of being born again.

You see, I believe that is one of the problems in Churchanity. While other religions understand that a neophyte knows nothing, they don't require anything from a neophyte. It is like you taking a job as an assistant in shop and being asked to build a wheel. They give you a bag of spokes, nipples, a spoke wrench, a rim, and hub. They walk you over to the truing stand and ask you to be done in 15 minutes? Good luck with that. Neophytes in the majority of other religions are not expected to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Some people are different, and they get converted and they are steady as she goes. That is why in the immortal words of Brother Ronnie Sexton "Jesus works with us on a case to case basis" Also I don't say to someone they must be perfect. The Bible is the one who said that. Not me, I just show the plain scripture. If someone wants to slip, slide, then coil around verses in a grandiose attempt to make someone feel better in sin. Then that's on them. We are to be able to live a overcomers life, that is a pretty good thing. If some joker is expected to be a craftsmen in woodworking, and an airplane mechanic, but as far as having an awesome character they can be off and on? Not a good look.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We are made perfect only through Christ.

We are "made" perfect though Christ as He being our example, our teacher, our father. We are to walk in the light as He is in the light, we are to purify ourselves as He is pure. Not through human discipline, but being full of the Holy Ghost which moves in us if we don't resit.

[good samaritan]

I agree in someways, but also know that there is a discipling process. Jesus disciples were chosen from imperfect pasts. While they walked with God they displayed their sinful nature on multiple occasions. Even after Pentecost you read of squabbles. Paul withstood Peter to his face because he was to be blamed and so forth. I don't think you hammer a babe on milk for stumbling a little bit, but as you said there will be a character change after the Spirit of God enters in.

I am not even talking about sins such as adultary, drunkedness, brawling, carousing, etc.... God does not share room and board with sin. If we love Him we will keep his commandments. Someone who is born again is not going to go home and fornicate afterward, not and remain born again. Abraham was called out of from his pagan family in search of another kingdom who's builder and maker is God. If you get the real deal you will do the same.

Homosexual Christian is an oxymoron. you can't be homosexual and a Chrsitian. There is a matter of the heart involved in all this. If the heart is pure (perfect) you are not going to want sin. If you no longer want sin, guess what? You are not going to sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I recently come across the scripture about laying up treasures in heaven. The verses go on to say if your eye be single the whole body will full of light. It took some thought, what in the world does it mean for your eye to be single. Then I stumbled across the phrase singleness of heart which means being totally devoted to something. Single is also whole or even completely. If our eye be single is in other words our sight is totally or wholly fixed on God and His righteousness then we will be full of light.

Yes, of course. Like anything else you focus on singularly you will become.
That happens in all forms of the human experience. That is why Jesus speaks of having two master, you would love one (and become like that master) or love the other (and become like that master) You cannot love God and Lucre.
We are to put on Christ, not like a costume with a mask, that is what the word ὑποκριτής actor which Jesus used to describe the religious Judeans of His day.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

This is exactly the perfection that God wants us to come to. We put all our focus on God and not on things of this world. We don't focus on faults and failures, but we keep our eyes on Jesus.

Awesome, you are going from infant nursing on the sincere colostrum, to a father who dines on Porterhouse with mushrooms, and onions. Faults and failures become less and less as you grow up. You aren't the same as you were when you were 6, or when you were 16, shouldn't be acting like your 16 when you are 60, right? Jesus wasn't being cryptic, or mysterious. He used real life examples to teach us how to live. People of other religions tend to look at American Churchanity shake their heads and wonder what anyone gets out of it? The saved a sinner but stay a sinner is more like AA, than the Gospel.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't disagree with you on any of this nor do I try to get converts ready to fail in advance. I spoke to someone today addicted to drugs. My admonition is that God will set you free. I always add that a person must desire that freedom. God is not going to steal possession of our bodies and live our lives for us though.

Amen. Yet, Churchanity teaches the drug addict to get off of drugs because the whole of society admonishes that. Yet, once Jimmy is off the freebase, reefer, or booze, he is still struggling. Because the church wants him to work all this out through human discipline. They don't teach him that it is possible to receive the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. Or even if they do, they only encourage him to do it once. I walked into a church to preach, and I always hit the prayer room before i preach. I walked on the platform and opened the prayer room door and found buckets, mops, brooms, costumes, props for a play, and a worn out artificial tree. walked off the platform and knelt in the pew. Praying through may be an apostolicism but it works. Be ye filled with the Holy Ghost works.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Sounds like a gloomy conversion. When I came to God I was classified and alcoholic by carey counseling. I had lost my license for DUI, Evading Arrest, Reckless Driving. I had watched my young life go down the drain and was contemplating suicide. I came to church as a favor to my grandma. All Christians where hypocrites so I had no desire to be there (right). I had a chip on my shoulder bigger then I was.

Something got hold of me that day that changed my life. It changed the way I walk, talk, dress, act, etc.... 16 years later and I am preaching the gospel to others baptizing others in the name of Jesus. I am not at all teaching people that they can't do better. I was addressing Aquilla, about mistakes. I have made mistakes in the past 16 years, but that doesn't change who that I am. A child of God. As a child of God I don't go around expecting to make mistakes, but as it happens I am not going to let the enemy torment me over it I am going to repent and by the grace of God overcome.

Bro, did Jesus ever bring up His past? Did Jesus ever bring up his past failures? No, because He didn't have any. All He could do is point forward. I was sitting in my car with another brother I had been working with, Bible studying, trying to help. He started to tell me about how sick he was over his financial problems. I then started to tell him what I was going through at the time. He turned around with his teary bloodshot eyes, and yelled, "I don't care if you have a bad life!" i laughed, put the car in gear, and off we went.
We are to point the way. I have had preachers ask me to give my testimony. But that's not getting up there and talking about my past. It is about talking about my present in the Gospel. The devil is defeated by my testimony of what Jesus does for me currently. My past? The devil knows it, and knows how to bring it up. That's why he is the accuser of the brethren.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Absolutely, but you if have watched a baby begin walk. It is going to take some spills, that is all in learning. That doesn't stop them from getting up. Being wholly made up is not about never falling it is about never loosing sight of God. This is not the same as living in disobedience.

Babies also go to the bathroom in their clothes. If you or I were still doing that there would be something wrong with us? RIGHT?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I assure you that I agree. My whole point in the comment about not attaining perfection was in regards to the inward struggle that we all have to face at times. We are made perfect through Christ alone, and not by our own merits. Although, people who live in willful sin are not in Christ and have not even begun the journey.

I think we are both saying the same thing but in a different way. Inward struggles you had prior to Christ, are vastly different now. Inward struggles you had as a neophyte are extremely different than now. Inward struggles now are less than 10 years ago, and in the future even less. Christ alone? Christ doesn't save blocks of wood, or slabs of concrete. Christ needs you to cooperate. You have a free will to either accept or reject at any time of the journey. You can trust or not trust at any point of travel. Your free will is whether you allow something to complete itself, or stop right before the job stops. We aren't Presbyterians, but once we start believing the Demonic antichrist doctrines they teach, we will become men most miserable.

Thank you GS for the discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree in someways, but also know that there is a discipling process. Jesus disciples were chosen from imperfect pasts. While they walked with God they displayed their sinful nature on multiple occasions. Even after Pentecost you read of squabbles. Paul withstood Peter to his face because he was to be blamed and so forth. I don't think you hammer a babe on milk for stumbling a little bit, but as you said there will be a character change after the Spirit of God enters in.

Zacharias and Elizabeth displayed their sinful nature on multiple occasions? I must of missed that. We shouldn't be spiritually bipolar. Paul withstood Peter for a doctrinal issue. But we are told of Peter's blame, we are told when others Demas, Alexander the coppersmith, and Hymenaeus messed up. Yet, Paul was steady as she goes. He also points out others like Timothy who was steady as she goes. People have all kinds of situations, and we stand in a pulpit telling them that Jesus can make them free. But then when they are blowing out a tire we show them some small print? Oh, well, it s like this...you are going to have inward struggles forever? No, who the son sets free is free INDEED!

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not even talking about sins such as adultery, drunkenness, brawling, carousing, etc.... God does not share room and board with sin.

GS, where is any sin higher or lower than the other? the whole venial sin and mortal sin issue was to make money. All sin is sin, and if a guy has inner struggle with looking at the wrong thing, even if he never acts out on it. He or she has monstrous issues. Same thing with lying, all liars have their part in a lake of fire. End of conversation. All liars mean any kind of lie. Not just untruths, because an untruth may not be a lie. A lie is done with intent to misrepresent and perpetuate. A brother could be wrong on an issue and giving false information because he doesn't know it is false. He isn't lying.
God doesn't share room with practitioners of sin, people who don't know any better are ignorant and need some Holy Ghost guidance, preaching, teaching, and a good hot bowl of gumbo wouldn't hurt either.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If we love Him we will keep his commandments. Someone who is born again is not going to go home and fornicate afterward, not and remain born again. Abraham was called out of from his pagan family in search of another kingdom who's builder and maker is God. If you get the real deal you will do the same.

Excellent!

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Homosexual Christian is an oxymoron. you can't be homosexual and a Christian. There is a matter of the heart involved in all this. If the heart is pure (perfect) you are not going to want sin. If you no longer want sin, guess what? You are not going to sin.

Beautiful

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Zacharias and Elizabeth displayed their sinful nature on multiple occasions? I must of missed that.

Elizbeth and Zacharias were upright people no doubt. Pure before God. Do you supposes they ever had a day they lost there temper with one another or said something cross. The Bible doesn't record that, but I know that is likely if we associated with them today we could pick out faults. These people revered God and served Him and that is what God is looking for in people today.

We shouldn't be spiritually bipolar. Paul withstood Peter for a doctrinal issue. But we are told of Peter's blame, we are told when others Demas, Alexander the coppersmith, and Hymenaeus messed up.

It was not a doctrinal issue that Paul withstood Peter for. Peter got up and walked out on the Gentile believers when Jewish believers came. Peter was fearful of what his fellow Jews would think of him. This was another act of denial, I don't know them. God had already told peter that those Gentiles were to be part of the kingdom. I don't see this as a doctrinal issue, but an integrity issue.

Galations 2:11-13

Yet, Paul was steady as she goes. He also points out others like Timothy who was steady as she goes. People have all kinds of situations, and we stand in a pulpit telling them that Jesus can make them free. But then when they are blowing out a tire we show them some small print? Oh, well, it s like this...you are going to have inward struggles forever? No, who the son sets free is free INDEED!

Acts 15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. 38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. 39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other:and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

2 Timothy 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee:for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

I've been taught that this same Mark that Paul didn't want around is later the Mark that Paul is sending for.

The fact of the matter is that our flesh doesn't go away when we come to God. We just aren't supposed to follow it anymore. The weapons of warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God. It is only through God we overcome our flesh nature, but that happens through our consistent choice to follow God. Daily seeking the Holy Ghost through prayer and study.

GS, where is any sin higher or lower than the other? the whole venial sin and mortal sin issue was to make money. All sin is sin, and if a guy has inner struggle with looking at the wrong thing, even if he never acts out on it. He or she has monstrous issues. Same thing with lying, all liars have their part in a lake of fire. End of conversation.

That is my intent on my beginning statement that no one at present is perfect as most people understand the word. Of coarse a person isn't to advocate sin big or small, but as has already been shown through God's word that men do fail even the perfect one's. That is not an excuse or a license, but a fact. I fear God. If I fail in some way I repent and I don't take salvation for granite.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we want to walk after the flesh we can go right back into that bondage again. I do not. If Christians feel like they have to sin and that mistakes are o.k. they need to read Romans 6. God forbid that we should continue in sin that grace may abound, We are dead to sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Elizabeth and Zacharias were upright people no doubt. Pure before God. Do you supposes they ever had a day they lost there temper with one another or said something cross.

Teaching from a supposition? Can be used at times to merely hold debate. Yet, to suppose one thing, we can just as well supposed the opposite. Suppose they didn't have a cross word, maybe they were pretty cool people, who were mature and did exactly what was required of them?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The Bible doesn't record that,

So, then there's no argument. People, and scholars have speculated all sorts of issues they believe Jesus to have. That Jesus had an anger issue which came out in an explosive way in His clearing of the temple. Even after His resurrection He returns to upbraid His disciples for their unbelief Mark 16:14. What is interesting about the Greek word ὠνείδισεν which is interpreted as "upbraid" is to actually grit your teeth in anger. The word appears in Matthew 27:44 interpreted in the KJV as "cast in the teeth." in Luke 6:22 NIV the word is interpreted as "insult." Yet, we understand what Jesus was doing, and we understand that He wasn't sinning before or after the resurrection. We can assume, suppose, and come up with all kinds of thoughts with conjecture. But, we need to present book, chapter, and verse.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

but I know that is likely if we associated with them today we could pick out faults.

Everyman's perception is his measure of truth? You might think they were the biggest jerks who ever donned a pair of sandals. While another may think their total hypocrites, another may think they sweat holy water, and their spit is anointing oil. But the writer of Luke records them as blameless, righteous. You and I just have that to work with, so we need to call it good.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

These people revered God and served Him and that is what God is looking for in people today.

Amen, that's what the scripture is saying, pondering whether or not they were ecclesiastical switch hitters is moot.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It was not a doctrinal issue that Paul withstood Peter for. Peter got up and walked out on the Gentile believers when Jewish believers came. Peter was fearful of what his fellow Jews would think of him. This was another act of denial, I don't know them. God had already told peter that those Gentiles were to be part of the kingdom. I don't see this as a doctrinal issue, but an integrity issue.

Galatians 2:11-13

Read further to Galatians 2:14


But I saw that they were not properly following the truth of the Gospel. So I told Peter in front of everyone, "You're Judean, but you live like a person who is not of Judea. So how can you insist that people who are not Judean must live like Judeans? Just a little straightening out Peter not understanding the teachings. James tells Paul that thousands of Judeans have become Apostolics, been baptized in Jesus name and keep the law of Moses. Because they still continued in the Law in the temple because the temple was still standing. Paul understood he and the other Judean Christians had to continue in the Law system while the temple still stood. Yet, the understood that the precepts, and constructs of the law did nothing for them because the Messiah had come. They had understanding that the schoolmaster had done his job, and they were in the new and living way. Yet, they were to continue to be all things to all men. To the Judean, they were to be Judean, to the Greek they were to be Greek. Yet, Peter got all this a little botched up, and took it to an extreme. Where he separated himself from the Apostolic Greek Romans. Making everyone look bad, while he still had boudin in his teeth. Peter drew away other brothers. Paul had to straighten it all out because it was Peter's fault.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I've been taught that this same Mark that Paul didn't want around is later the Mark that Paul is sending for.

We don't know what their argument was about number one. Both gentlemen have Roman patrician surnames. It may had something to do with Roman law, who they were, doctrinal issue, or that Paul was once a problem for the Diaspora Judeans living abroad in the Roman empire. We don't know neither is it important for us to know. We just are told they couldn't straighten out their issues so they had to be parted. Paul older has a different view on thing? Maybe, we assume much concerning Paul's relationship with Marcus.

Anything other that this is all speculation.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The fact of the matter is that our flesh doesn't go away when we come to God.

It is a change of nature, the lion didn't eat straw like an ox on occasion. Only to go over to the lamb lying down with the wolf to devour it. No, the prophet paints a nice picture of a change of nature. Noah's ark, picture of the covenant kingdom. Where clean and unclean unite in salvation. We place too much on neophytes, instead of looking at them as babies. So, hit the ground running, some crawl, and are mature far past their years. Some sadly die in the cradle. But this is about a foot race, and we as preachers keep pointing towards the finish line.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We just aren't supposed to follow it anymore.

Exactly, we are to follow Jesus Christ. The lion eating straw like an ox isn't eating thinking in his "inner lion" "wow, I sure would like to eat that lamb lying down with that wolf. That wolf is letting that lamb go to waste!" A little Tony's sprinkled on its head! Oooh boy, sum good eatin."

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The weapons of warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God. It is only through God we overcome our flesh nature, but that happens through our consistent choice to follow God. Daily seeking the Holy Ghost through prayer and study.

Amen, so what's the issue?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

That is my intent on my beginning statement that no one at present is perfect as most people understand the word.

Bro, I don't care how some people understand the word. I showed you the Greek in detail. In Matthew 5:48 Jesus is telling us to GROW UP in your relationship towards God.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Of coarse a person isn't to advocate sin big or small, but as has already been shown through God's word that men do fail even the perfect one's. That is not an excuse or a license, but a fact. I fear God. If I fail in some way I repent and I don't take salvation for granted.

GS, God's word shows overcomers in Christ. More than a conqueror? A good tree cannot produce bad fruit?

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If we want to walk after the flesh we can go right back into that bondage again. I do not. If Christians feel like they have to sin and that mistakes are o.k. they need to read Romans 6. God forbid that we should continue in sin that grace may abound, We are dead to sin.

Bro, I'm bit confused with what you been posting. You are dead to sin, or are you having a cold to sin? I don't know many dead people who can do much. Other than throw dirt on them. So, if anyone is actually dead to sin, how do they sin?