Do OPs have a grace problem?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke... just answer the question. Let's say you're on the high way on the way to work and you sin... a second later your car is crushed by a semi. You have unrepented sin. Will you go to Hell???

Or... what if something is indeed a sin and you don't know it? Like what if having the internet is sinful in God's eyes. Will you be damned to Hell for having it???

Obviously if you are seeking God he will reveal it to you. If not you are not acountable. to him that knoweth to do good and doeth not it is sin. Knowledge is key.

Also I did answer it. You simply don't want to realize what I said. If you did not repent God will weigh you in the end according to your faithfulness. God is not a IN TIME being. He sees the depth of your heart. He knows true loyalty.

In the end was the man walking in the light as he is in the light to be cleansed from all sin. That is God's judgment.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

[Aquila]

Jesus interpreted the law for the masses while under the law bringing swift condemnation. For example, Jesus said...

Matthew 5:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This brought swift condemnation to those who might argue, "But I never actually touched her."

Back then divorce was running rampant as it is today. And Jesus said,

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Boom! Masses of listeners were condemned.

Again, Jesus interpreted the Law:

Matthew 5:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

BOOM! Again the masses were condemned. These are all interpretations of the law.

Jesus then boils the entire law down to two simple commandments:

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Luke 10:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What does God expect of us???

1.) To love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) To demonstrate that love for God by loving others as ourselves.

Paul also elaborates, carrying this into the NT:

Galatians 5:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

To accomplish this, we must "abide" in Christ. That means that we are to maintain a spiritual union, or oneness, with Him through the Holy Ghost, living as extensions, branches of the Vine.

John 15:1-10
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

This "spiritual abiding" will bring forth a love that produces certain "fruit":

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance.

Here are what I believe to be the "biblical standards" (just speaking the religious language here) that we must keep after conversion. One must:

1.) Reckon their very identity in Christ.

2.) Seek Christlikeness through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is a lifelong journey of spiritual growth.

3.) Surrender to the indwelling Spirit to manifest fruit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

4.) Fulfill the whole law by loving their neighbour as themselves. In this, we demonstrate our love for God.

5.) We are to repent of and seek to abstain from, and pray for our proclivities towards, the works of the flesh: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

In that sense... I guess I do believe in "standards". And for those who struggle with the works of the flesh in this stage of their spiritual development we find...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We must be honest about our sins and struggles. We must confess the sins and sinful tendencies of our flesh. We must live a life of confession before God. In this state of absolute humility before God's grace... we can be cleansed and counted "sinless" before God, robed in Christ's own sinless righteousness. He has traded me coats.

The truth is, the Bible says...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Even on our most well behaved day... we are inherently repugnant to God. Even when we've done our absolute best... it's not good enough to earn His love or our salvation. We'll only begin an existence wherein we are sinless after our glorification. On that day, the very nature of God will fill us that God might be all in all. We shall be absolutely... like Him. Not by becoming "little Gods"... but by partaking in His very nature and all it's fulness. His sinless holiness will absolutely fill our entire being.

Until then... our only hope is grace.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I'm not sure about you, but I'm still a sinnner. I have a problem with sin in my life, I often have a problem with following the Spirit instead of flesh and I do that which I don't want to do and do fail to do those things which I wish to do. O wretched man that I am!! Or should I say, O wretched REDEEMED man that I am!!

My righteousness lies in Christ, not in me. I attempt to live unto Him but oft times I fail, get up, succeed and then fail again. But never once was my redemption in jeopardy. Not once did God consider unredeeming me, throwing me in the garbage pit. That's because I'm His son, purchased with a price that's beyond value. That's because HE is the redeemer, not me.

On the other hand, you, it seems, are placing the hope of redemption in yourself and the righteous works you do to earn your redemption. That takes Jesus out of the picture to a certain extent though.

I notice you never really deal with scripture or what is said. You just ask questions and really just assert things. Nice strawman you just make and false image you made of my beliefs. I also guess Paul being the chief of sinners had to do with AFTER he came to Christ. LOL smh

also concerning the bold...

Romans 7 and the "I"



Romans 7 is remarkable for being a passage on which biblical scholars had an almost unanimous change of view in a relatively short time.



Romans 7 contains a lengthy and passionate explanation about a person's struggles with Sin, Flesh, Spirit and Law. One of the more famous lines reads "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." This passage has often spoken powerfully to people as the see their own life struggles reflected in it.



From the time of the Reformation until 50 years ago, biblical scholarship was deeply divided over one question regarding Romans 7: Is Paul in this passage speaking of his pre-conversion life as a Pharisee or his post-conversion life as a Christian? In other words, should we expect such struggles with sin to exemplify the Christian life, or ought the Christian life be characterized by freedom from sin? The fact that the passage was about Paul was universally accepted - after all, it uses the word "I" constantly, and how could Paul write with such emotion if he was not writing about himself?



Yet now there is pretty much unanimity amongst scholars that the passage is not about Paul. Paul is definitely not the "I" speaking in the passage. Paul is using a standard ancient Greek rhetorical device of speech-in-character and it is that character who is talking. The previous question about whether the struggle with sin describes the Christian or pre-Christian life seems to have also been definitively answered: The character is speaking of their pre-Christian life and their struggles with sin, and looking for Christ to free them from the power of sin and save them from that struggle. It is notable that all the early Greek Christian commentaries on Romans held both these views.



The new question that has scholars engaged is the question of: Who is the character? The main candidates seem to be:
■
Adam himself and his experiences with the command to not eat the fruit.

■A gentile who decided to start following the Jewish Law.
■Humanity/Israel personified. ie the passage is the story of salvation history from Adam to Christ like in Rom 5, with humanity/Israel itself as the speaker.

Scholars are divided on these three and no one has yet to produce a compelling argument for one over the others. I have no idea myself which of these three is most likely (I haven't studied the passage too carefully).



On few issues in scholarship is there much level of agreement, so it is quite surprising that there is so much agreement on the subject of Paul not being the "I" in Romans 7 and that there has been a universal change of tune within so short a time-frame. But it also raises a rather important question: If the one passage where we were sure was Paul speaking is in fact not Paul at all, then what about all the other passages where we thought Paul was speaking

http://theogeek.blogspot.com/2007/09...s-7-and-i.html

[KWSS1976]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip-COzs42LQ

there yall go have fun...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Obviously if you are seeking God he will reveal it to you. If not you are not acountable. to him that knoweth to do good and doeth not it is sin. Knowledge is key.

I find this faulty logic. If this be the case... we do the world a diservice by propagating the Gospel. If we left sinners and believers in their ignorance they'd fare far better, according to this logic. No... ALL mankind is DOOMED. We're all absolutely repugnant to God... even the saint on their best day is DOOMED without the grace of God. God is so holy... no fallen man has a snow ball's chance in Hell without grace. That is how serious sin is... and how Holy God is. Legalism minimizes both sin and holiness.

Also I did answer it. You simply don't want to realize what I said. If you did not repent God will weigh you in the end according to your faithfulness. God is not a IN TIME being. He sees the depth of your heart. He knows true loyalty.

So we, like the Muslim, have to pray that our faithfulness (good deeds) outweigh the bad. That's depressing. What about the believer who backslides and lives a life of sin only to return to God the last hours of his or her life? They have no hope for salvation, because their lives will be weighed according to their faithfulness and found dreadfully wanting. No amount of "faithfulness" within the last few hours of life can make up for a lifetime of sin. This too is error brother. The truth is... Grace cleanses them instantly before God and they stand as though they never sinned.

In the end was the man walking in the light as he is in the light to be cleansed from all sin. That is God's judgment.

Error alert!!! It reads...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Spoken in the present tense. If we are walking in the light of His truth, power, and grace... the blood cleanses us from all sin. Even those things we are not aware of. Even if God finds the internet absolutely repugnant... walking in the light of His grace will cleanse you from all sin. This is a change of inner nature. You will be drawn to increasingly do that which brings you closer to Christlikeness day by day... from glory to glory.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

A prophet speaking while under the law. Nailed to the cross. Law of Love remains.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We must be honest about our sins and struggles. The truth is, the Bible says...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You do realize you as many have taken this completely out of context.

the garment Israel wears is the clothing God gave them which was the covenant to do. Just as the Bride has been given to clothe herself so was Israel.


Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.



Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.
Isa 64:5 You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isa 64:7 There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

The garment they where given was polluted because of unrepentance. The righteous deeds = the covenant. That which was righteous was now filth because they would not seek or call upon God as a people.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

You do realize you as many have taken this completely out of context.

the garment Israel wears is the clothing God gave them which was the covenant to do. Just as the Bride has been given to clothe herself so was Israel.


Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.



Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.
Isa 64:5 You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isa 64:7 There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

The garment they where given was polluted because of unrepentance. The righteous deeds = the covenant. That which was righteous was now filth because they would not seek or call upon God as a people.

It doesn't matter if it's the Law of Moses, the law of the UPCI, the law of one's pastor, or the law of one's own private interpretation. No adherence to law can earn the absolute holy righteousness that God requires. To say that one could is an insult to God's holiness and demonstrates a woeful misunderstanding of both how Holy God is... and how serious sin is in His sight. Even some of the ways we've spoken to one another on this forum demands that someone DIE before God. However, God punished Jesus in our place, providing propitiation. He is my sin bearer.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find this faulty logic. If this be the case... we do the world a diservice by propagating the Gospel. If we left sinners and believers in their ignorance they'd fare far better, according to this logic. No... ALL mankind is DOOMED. We're all absolutely repugnant to God... even the saint on their best day is DOOMED without the grace of God. God is so holy... no fallen man has a snow ball's chance in Hell without grace. That is how serious sin is... and how Holy God is. Legalism minimizes both sin and holiness.

Not what I said. Seriously If you are not going to FOLLOW WHAT I SAID BEFORE LIKE I SAID I am not going to continue. It is a HABIT you have and you never change.

So we, like the Muslim, have to pray that our faithfulness (good deeds) outweigh the bad. That's depressing. What about the believer who backslides and lives a life of sin only to return to God the last hours of his or her life? They have no hope for salvation, because their lives will be weighed according to their faithfulness and found dreadfully wanting. No amount of "faithfulness" within the last few hours of life can make up for a lifetime of sin. This too is error brother. The truth is... Grace cleanses them instantly before God and they stand as though they never sinned.

Not even going to get into it anymore with you. Same old stuff. TANGENT, STRAWMAN!

Error alert!!! It reads...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Spoken in the present tense. If we are walking in the light of His truth, power, and grace... the blood cleanses us from all sin. Even those things we are not aware of. Even if God finds the internet absolutely repugnant... walking in the light of His grace will cleanse you from all sin. This is a change of inner nature. You will be drawn to increasingly do that which brings you closer to Christlikeness day by day... from glory to glory.



A prophet speaking while under the law. Nailed to the cross. Law of Love remains.

LOL you act like I said something wrong and I disagree. smh

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It doesn't matter if it's the Law of Moses, the law of the UPCI, the law of one's pastor, or the law of one's own private interpretation. No adherence to law can earn the absolute holy righteousness that God requires. To say that one could is an insult to God's holiness and demonstrates a woeful misunderstanding of both how Holy God is... and how serious sin is in His sight. Even some of the ways we've spoken to one another on this forum demands that someone DIE before God. However, God punished Jesus in our place, providing propitiation. He is my sin bearer.

ZIIIIP right over the head. Why you even bring this up and the context of what I said is insane. Goodbye.

[KWSS1976]

Well Dropkick Murphys says we are saved by Grace so they can't be wrong...