Sinful housework

[Aquila]

Think of it this way... one cannot stand before God and be condemned for being too loving or too forgiving. But one can be condemned for not having been loving and/or forgiving enough.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Think of it this way... one cannot stand before God and be condemned for being too loving or too forgiving. But one can be condemned for not having been loving and/or forgiving enough.

The same can be said for both holiness and righteousness.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke,

I fully agree. However, the "commandments" of Jesus are to love God and to demonstrate that love by loving others. Now, many of the things we call "commandments" are "teachings" wherein Jesus explains what to do in various contexts. But ultimately every teaching/commandment is summed up in loving God and loving others. Therefore the point is... if we love Jesus we will love God with our of our being and demonstrate that love by loving others as ourselvse. These are the commandments Jesus is talking about.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Now what does Jesus say about this...

John 15:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

This is because...

Mark 12:28-31
King James Version (KJV)
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Why are these the "greatest" commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These two commandments are the very basis of every other law of God. Everything God commanded is an effort to express God's desire that we love Him above all and love our neighbour as ourselves. Once we understand this, the Law has done it's job. It really is completed and perfected in us. For example, why did God forbid pork? Because it was associated with pagan feasts. To partake would tempt one to put a false God before God. Now, we know there is nothing wrong with pork in and of itself (even though it is listed as an abomination/idolatry). The issue was loving only God. Now that we've gasped that... this law isn't necessary. It need not be obeyed "to the letter" in us. We can now freely eat pork... as long as we serve only God and receive it with thanksgiving to Him and Him alone. Also, to eat pork in the context wherein pork was forbidden could tempt others into idolatry, even if we gave God thanks for it. To eat pork in that context would fail the test of loving God and loving others. Every commandment of the law is essentially like this. Thus, to demonstrate one's love for God by loving others as one's self is to fulfill the ENTIRE law with one single action that results in a state of being... being loving towards all. This is why Paul wrote...

Galatians 5:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The entire law is fulfilled in one teaching, one commandment, loving others as ourselves.

I agree with you 100% in concept in that the whole law is contained in loving God with all our being and in loving our neighbour as ourself. Where i cannot agree with you is in application. In the illustraton that you gave as to the eating of pork (which was resended to gentile christians in Acts) which you said was simply so that the Jews would not be tempted to serve other gods but rather love God entirerly and is therefore now done away with. Would you also apply that same logic to acts of homosexuality and consentual incest where in both cases those involved claim that they arew acting out of love for one another even though both are forbidden by God?

The difference as I see it in our approach is that you look at it and say as long as a person loves God's entirerly and others as themself then their actions are not important as long as there is love.

I on the other hand would say that if i love God entirerly and others as myself then it will cause me to walk in obedience to the law of God and to do otherwise is to show that i do not have the love that i claim.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

The same can be said for both holiness and righteousness.

Depends on how one defines holiness and righteousness. Being loving, true to God, true to self, and being forgiving to a fault. To many... that is holiness. That is righteousness.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Depends on how one defines holiness and righteousness. Being loving, true to God, true to self, and being forgiving to a fault. To many... that is holiness. That is righteousness.

Not quite a biblical definition.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree with you 100% in concept in that the whole law is contained in loving God with all our being and in loving our neighbour as ourself. Where i cannot agree with you is in application. In the illustraton that you gave as to the eating of pork (which was resended to gentile christians in Acts) which you said was simply so that the Jews would not be tempted to serve other gods but rather love God entirerly and is therefore now done away with. Would you also apply that same logic to acts of homosexuality and consentual incest where in both cases those involved claim that they arew acting out of love for one another even though both are forbidden by God?

Some might. I wouldn't.

However, it is an interesting point. True story... a man donated sperm and it was used by dozens of couples. Many years later a couple were married and having trouble conceiving. They discovered that genetically they were half brother and half sister because of the wide use of this man's donation. Do we force them to divorce?

As for homosexuality, I have deep reservations. I still believe there is a degree of mental and/or emotional problems that contribute to the condition in most cases. Is it really "loving"? Or is it merely codependent mutual wounding? Love...? I have my doubts. In the end... God alone is the judge of the intents of the heart. Every soul is His... even the soul of the homosexual. Will not the God of all the earth do right? I rest in this.

The difference as I see it in our approach is that you look at it and say as long as a person loves God's entirerly and others as themself then their actions are not important as long as there is love.

To a large degree yes. Exactly. However, actions that use, demean, are unloving, or unhealthy are not acts of "love".

I on the other hand would say that if i love God entirerly and others as myself then it will cause me to walk in obedience to the law of God and to do otherwise is to show that i do not have the love that i claim.

But when you say "law of God" you pick and choose what that constitutes. One legalist will condemn all jewelry. Another everything but "functional" jewelry. Some will condemn pork or advocate Sabbath keeping... while another advocates freedom in diet and doesn't advocate Sabbath keeping. Some label beards a sin. Others require them. Yet another might not advocate any standard concerning them. Legalists tout the "law of God" but pick and choose what that constitutes based on personal conviction. Then... they hold others to their highly subjective list of standards as a measurement of righteousness. Sometimes to the point of judging entire churches of like Apostolic faith in their community.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Not quite a biblical definition.

What is God with regards to His very substance? Love. Living love. And that is defined as being "holy". Love is holiness. And holiness is loving. Holiness has nothing to do with rules. It has to do with one's state of being. Are they loving or not? To love is to be holy. For to love is to be like God. No man can say he loves God and fail to love others. However, one can keep any list of standards and fail to love others.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What is God with regards to His very substance? Love. Living love. And that is defined as being "holy". Love is holiness. And holiness is loving. Holiness has nothing to do with rules. It has to do with one's state of being. Are they loving or not? To love is to be holy. For to love is to be like God. No man can say he loves God and fail to love others. However, one can keep any list of standards and fail to love others.

Gad at His very nature is Holy. His love along with all of His other attributes flow and stem from His love.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Gad at His very nature is Holy. His love along with all of His other attributes flow and stem from His love.

I think it's important to emphasize that God doesn't love... He is love.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think it's important to emphasize that God doesn't love... He is love.

Iagree God is Love but he is also Justice and Rightous and Omnipotent and Omniscence and Sovereign and Merciful, Gracious but all of these things are equal attributes that flow from His nature which is holiness