History of Tithes in the Church

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.

Live
g2198. ζάω zaō; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): — life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.
AV (143) - live 117, be alive 9, alive 6, quick 4, lively 3, not tr 1, misc 2, vr live 1;

The person who preaches the gospel “should” receive the things that sustain their life.

Like mortgage payments, and vehicle loans, and vacations, and etc.? See, since you make the claim Paul means more than just food, where do you draw the line? And just because you draw the line at a shorter distance than some or even most, who's to say another person can't take that line a couple more miles down the road and say, I need these things to sustain my life?

Or, we could just let Paul's words mean exactly what they mean, and "learn to no go beyond that which is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6), so that no one gets puffed up in favor, one over another.

As I have already said, it wasn’t IMO, Paul’s intent for his epistles to be made into regulatory laws that say you can give this, but not that.

So, he just used the words he used, to convey his particular points to his particular audience, and gets very specific with them and refers to an OT context in which only food was given, but here in the 21st century, we get to stretch his words to mean anything we want? That's how it's done?

Also this passage doesn’t limit giving to only traveling teachers/evangelists, but to all who minister the gospel.

Where is the word "minister" in 1 Corinthians 9, in the way you mean it, and not according to those who serve at the altar in the temple?

For Paul, a herald of the Gospel didn't park himself in a spot on a platform behind a box week after week after week for the rest of his life while everyone came to him to hear whatever he had to say.

No, for Paul, preaching the Gospel meant travelling from place to place (See Romans 15:19-20 for an example).

1 Corinthians 9:16 (ESV),

16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

Preach the Gospel (first use): εὐαγγελίζωμαι (euangelizōmai)

Preach the Gospel (second use): εὐαγγελίσωμαι (euangelisōmai)

Both are verb forms, from the same root, that means "to evangelize".

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/9-16.htm

It's the same word Jesus used (and was used of Him) when He insisted He had to travel to other towns:

Luke 4:43 (ESV),

43 but he said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.”

Luke 8:1 (ESV),

1 Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God.

It's the same word used of the disciples Jesus sent out:

Luke 9:6 (ESV),

6 And they departed and went through the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

It's the word used when the saints fled Jerusalem and went everywhere preaching the Gospel:

Acts 8:4 (ESV),

4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word.

It's the same word used of Philip when he travelled to Samaria to preach the Gospel:

Acts 8:12 (ESV),

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

I think the point is made. Evangelization requires travel. There may be instances where a temporary stop is made for a little time, and someone preaches the Good News there for that time, as the Spirit leads, but not as a permanent home inside of a building, behind a box with a microphone and sound system paid for with tithes.

The saints at Jerusalem sold houses and lands and laid the price at the apostles feet. Obviously, it was money, and it was shared with all poor as well as the apostles. The apostles don’t seem to be any longer fisherman to support themselves, but had become fishers of men. Matter of fact they had forsaken their nets(secular jobs) long before, in order to follow Jesus.

Are you an apostle? Am I? Who then gets the right to forbear work, according to Paul and the example of the Twelve?

There isn’t any direct NT commandment that institutes exact methodology on giving in the NT.

Yes, there is. You can start with 1 Corinthians 16:2 and go from there.

The scriptures (old and new testaments) teach many principles about giving, but there is no exact instructions that the church is to follow.

Yes, there is. You can start with 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 and go from there.

Serving is more important than being served. Hirelings serve for the money, but Gods minister serves because it is his purpose given by God. Take away the money and material things, and nothing would change. The motivation isn’t material.

You cannot differentiate what Jesus said based solely on hidden motives. The word Jesus used means a wage-earner. That's the bottom-line. He didn't speak of motive, only of results: that when the wolves come in, the hireling flees, because he's not the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep.

Give up your salary, and do everything you do for free, and trust God to make up the difference, with another child on the way, and see if you last. Test your own motives.

I know a brother who was taking a salary of $36,000 a year from the church he pastored. He realized his error, repented of it, recanted it publicly, and refused to take a penny from anyone, and God led a local businessman to randomly pick his church out of a phonebook to make a donation of $50,000 to that church, from which, the pastor took not a penny, and God gave him an opportunity to start his own business that allowed him to make over 3X his former salary, while enriching the church so all sorts of needs could be met, like fixing saints' cars, sending missionaries around the world, buying groceries for those in need, and right on down the list, paying people's rent, donating large sums to the injured, and etc.

Through that church, I was able to raise over $7,000.00 with a couple of texts and one in person conversation so a lady I worked with who had been crippled in a car accident wouldn't lose her house, could have her utilities paid for, and have all sorts of other needs met, until her husband could go back to work after a knee surgery which had taken place just a couple of days before her accident (black ice in February in WI on the way to work).

Simply because the people of God there got on board with doing things God's way, exactly, precisely, according to only that which is written, and not beyond.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Like mortgage payments, and vehicle loans, and vacations, and etc.? See, since you make the claim Paul means more than just food, where do you draw the line? And just because you draw the line at a shorter distance than some or even most, who's to say another person can't take that line a couple more miles down the road and say, I need these things to sustain my life?

Or, we could just let Paul's words mean exactly what they mean, and "learn to no go beyond that which is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6), so that no one gets puffed up in favor, one over another.

I personally believe that line should be drawn by the local body of each particular church. We have been playing scriptural ping pong all through this thread and rebuttals are endless. There are valid points made about giving from every side, and my conclusion is that giving is between three individuals the giver, the beneficiary, and God. God judges the intents of the heart in both directions. Since there is not any systematic giving instructions in the NT, there is liberty in the method.

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For Paul, a herald of the Gospel didn't park himself in a spot on a platform behind a box week after week after week for the rest of his life while everyone came to him to hear whatever he had to say.

Modern pastors do much more than that. Visit the sick, comfort mourning families, evangelize the lost of the city, exhort the local church, to (strive)keep unity in the local body, provide scriptural counseling as needed etc…

No, for Paul, preaching the Gospel meant travelling from place to place (See Romans 15:19-20 for an example).

Paul traveled, but how long did he stay in each place? I don’t know the answer to that. The Holy Ghost led him when and where he should go. I still don’t see that as some foundation for a doctrine of giving. All ministers in the Word are valid recipients.

I think the point is made. Evangelization requires travel. There may be instances where a temporary stop is made for a little time, and someone preaches the Good News there for that time, as the Spirit leads, but not as a permanent home inside of a building, behind a box with a microphone and sound system paid for with tithes.

Evangelism is about reaching the lost. We travel every time we leave our home to do it. The key is as the Spirit leads. I love the city that I live, I was born and raised here and have no plans in leaving. Although, If God wants me to go I’ll go.

Are you an apostle? Am I? Who then gets the right to forbear work, according to Paul and the example of the Twelve?

Depends on our faith. Most people would not quit secular work to do what the apostles did. If God leads someone to do something, then we should obey.

Yes, there is. You can start with 1 Corinthians 16:2 and go from there.



Yes, there is. You can start with 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 and go from there

.

I am talking about systematic giving in the NT. We have liberty.

You cannot differentiate what Jesus said based solely on hidden motives. The word Jesus used means a wage-earner. That's the bottom-line. He didn't speak of motive, only of results: that when the wolves come in, the hireling flees, because he's not the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep.

Motives are just as important as actions with God. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and be lost. You can do the wrong things for the right reasons and still potentially find favor.

Give up your salary, and do everything you do for free, and trust God to make up the difference, with another child on the way, and see if you last. Test your own motives.

I may do that, but regardless God will test all our motives.

1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

I know a brother who was taking a salary of $36,000 a year from the church he pastored. He realized his error, repented of it, recanted it publicly, and refused to take a penny from anyone, and God led a local businessman to randomly pick his church out of a phonebook to make a donation of $50,000 to that church, from which, the pastor took not a penny, and God gave him an opportunity to start his own business that allowed him to make over 3X his former salary, while enriching the church so all sorts of needs could be met, like fixing saints' cars, sending missionaries around the world, buying groceries for those in need, and right on down the list, paying people's rent, donating large sums to the injured, and etc.

Awesome testimony!!! I disagree with the reasoning, but God honors faith.

Through that church, I was able to raise over $7,000.00 with a couple of texts and one in person conversation so a lady I worked with who had been crippled in a car accident wouldn't lose her house, could have her utilities paid for, and have all sorts of other needs met, until her husband could go back to work after a knee surgery which had taken place just a couple of days before her accident (black ice in February in WI on the way to work).

Simply because the people of God there got on board with doing things God's way, exactly, precisely, according to only that which is written, and not beyond.

I can give you similar testimonies from churches who preach tithes. God is amazing. God honors faith, and you and I have liberty in our giving. If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly. I want to sow bountifully.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Awesome testimony!!! I disagree with the reasoning, but God honors faith.


I can give you similar testimonies from churches who preach tithes. God is amazing. God honors faith, and you and I have liberty in our giving. If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly. I want to sow bountifully.

I keep hearing this again and again from tithing teachings. Faith in what promise exactly? Could you please clarify? I would like verses please.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I keep hearing this again and again from tithing teachings. Faith in what promise exactly? Could you please clarify? I would like verses please.

Faith in God. If I believe that God desires something from me, my response is an faith motivated action. If there is no action, there is no faith to motivate an action.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I keep hearing this again and again from tithing teachings. Faith in what promise exactly? Could you please clarify? I would like verses please.

Are you asking about explicit scripture promises regarding tithing or in general?

[good samaritan]

We are not under any of Mosaic law. The law of Moses was only for physical nation of Israel. The Old Testament leads us to Christ. The NT gives both principles and direct commands. We are to follow the direct commands and learn from the principles. Paul gave no direct command of systematic giving, but he did teach us to support preachers of the gospel, the flexibility is in how we do so.

He didn’t say anything at all about keeping the Sabbath. I highly doubt the gentile converts where keeping a Saturday Sabbath. Yet, we find zero instructions for that to be an issue. Yet, we read verses like this:

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We are not under any of Mosaic law. The law of Moses was only for physical nation of Israel.

So we can worship idols and commit adultery and anything else we want.

The NT gives both principles and direct commands. We are to follow the direct commands and learn from the principles.

Where does the Bible teach this?

He didn’t say anything at all about keeping the Sabbath. I highly doubt the gentile converts where keeping a Saturday Sabbath.

You should read Acts more closely then. And maybe learn about early church history.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So we can worship idols and commit adultery and anything else we want.

The Holy Ghost would convict me of idolatry. There are direct commands by the apostles that forbid idolatry.

1 Corinthians 10:14
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Where does the Bible teach this?

I can give you an example.

The above scripture is a command to flee idolatry. That NT teaching is to be directly obeyed.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This is a principle. There are many different applications that a principle can be applied. We are to view our body as the church. I frequently get told when I invite people to our church that the rafters would fall in if they came in. They are insinuating if a unholy person came into a holy place God would destroy them. The reality is that the church building isn’t what is holy, but we are. If there is something we would be convicted to do in the aka “Lord’s house”, the we shouldn’t do it at all. Our body is the Lord’s house.

You should read Acts more closely then. And maybe learn about early church history.

I have read the Acts of apostles, and I will continue to read it closely. As for church history, it is interesting, but we do not develop doctrine from history.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The Holy Ghost would convict me of idolatry. There are direct commands by the apostles that forbid idolatry.

1 Corinthians 10:14
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

You seem to have glossed over the word "Wherefore". I'll just leave it at that.

I can give you an example.

The above scripture is a command to flee idolatry. That NT teaching is to be directly obeyed.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This is a principle. There are many different applications that a principle can be applied. We are to view our body as the church. I frequently get told when I invite people to our church that the rafters would fall in if they came in. They are insinuating if a unholy person came into a holy place God would destroy them. The reality is that the church building isn’t what is holy, but we are. If there is something we would be convicted to do in the aka “Lord’s house”, the we shouldn’t do it at all. Our body is the Lord’s house.

I asked where does the Bible teach "The NT contains commands to be obeyed as well as principles" etc. You didn't show where the NT teaches what you said. You have a view of the NT, and of the OT. I am asking where does the Bible teach your view of the OT and NT that you are espousing? I am not asking "where does the Bible teach your doctrine concerning" the sabbath, or the 10 commandments, or ministerial salaries. I am asking where does the Bible teach your particular doctrine of the Word and its authority and how we are to take it?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The Holy Ghost would convict me of idolatry. There are direct commands by the apostles that forbid idolatry.

Only because there are laws in the OT that command us not to worship idols, beginning in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments.

Otherwise, where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13).

Essentially, the reason you believe the Holy Spirit would convict you, and correctly so, I might add, is because the Holy Spirit forbad the worshipping of idols at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-6).

Makes one wonder what other laws the Holy Spirit might convict a person of, from out of the Ten Commandments?