Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

Sam, do you believe the HS indwells at repentance without speaking in tongues (baptism of HS)?

yes

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

yes

So how do you know they received it?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Darcie

Here's my question to you... Is the Holy Ghost an object, or a being?

If you think think baptism of the Holy Ghost and receiving the Holy Ghost is the same you make the Holy Ghost an object. And we all know that the Holy Ghost is God, a being. So if I've repented and have even gotten baptised, do I not have God in me. I mean, are we oneness, or are we oneness?

In my opinion, the Holy Ghost, like the Father and the Son is not an it.
The Holy Ghost is God. The Holy Ghost is a "He."

We do not say, I love the Lord because It is my Father and I am Its child.
Neither do we say I love Jesus because It is my Savior. It died on the cross for me and now It lives in my heart.
Nor should we say in reference to the Holy Spirit, It lives in me, or thank God I have received It, or It came into my heart.

In my opinion, God is Spirit.
We can say God lives in our heart.
We can say Jesus lives in our heart.
We can say the Holy Spirit lives in our heart.
We can say Jesus lives in our heart.
However we express it, only one Spirit lives in our heart whatever we call Him.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

So how do you know they received it?

When we ask Him to come in, He does.
We know it by faith.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

When we ask Him to come in, He does.
We know it by faith.

Is there scripture you have to support that?
Or is this just a personal belief?

[Sam]

Jesus said, "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)

The Apostle John said:
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13)

Previously he had said:
"If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." (1 John 5:1)

[TRFrance]

So how come the Samaritan believers in Acts 8 didnt have the Holy Ghost after repenting and being baptized ? (my previous post above .. #9, goes into this in more detail)

[Sam]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

So how come the Samaritan believers in Acts 8 didnt have the Holy Ghost after repenting and being baptized ? (my previous post above .. #9, goes into this in more detail)

I would not say the Samaritans were not saved and did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within until the Apostles came down from the Jerusalem Church. I would say that they were saved when they believed (verse 12). It is recorded in verse 14 that they had received the Word (Jesus). Because they believed and received the Word/Jesus, Philip baptized them (verse 12). We see in a later account that Philip required a profession/confession of faith before he would baptize someone (verses 36 and 37) because he wanted to ascertain that they had been saved or converted first (just as John the Baptist insisted on repentance before he would baptize in water Matthew 3:7-8). In my opinion these folks were saved because they believed and received Jesus (the Word). Then as a result of their faith they were baptized in water. Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience that is called by various terms such as:

receiving the Spirit,
being filled with the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon them,
the Spirit coming upon them,
being endued with power,
being baptized in the Spirit,
receiving the promise of the Father,
being filled with the Spirit

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sam

Jesus said, "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)

The Apostle John said:
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13)

Previously he had said:
"If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." (1 John 5:1)

Is that your best evidence, brother?

I thought just for once, someone was going to come with better scriptures than that. Anyway...

Originally Posted by Sam

Jesus said, "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)

Cast out? If someone repents but doesn't receive the Holy Ghost right away, it doesn't mean they're being "cast out". The believers in Acts 8 came to God, got baptized, but didn't get the Holy Ghost immediately... but it didn't mean they were "cast out"; they just didn't have the Holy Ghost yet, thats all. Then after Peter and John prayed for God to give it to them, they got it.

I don't see how being "cast out" would even apply here.

Originally Posted by Sam

Previously he had said:
"If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." (1 John 5:1)

or to use the King James version of that:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

If we want to pull verses out of the proper overall NT context, one might also try to say that anyone who just believes is saved". Using your apparent train of thought here...

... Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But a person walking into a church and saying "I believe" ... that by itself doesn't make him saved, does it? Same concept. Believing is key, but thats only the beginning. It certainly doesn't constitute salvation in and of itself.

Or... we could go to a ridiculous extreme, if we're just going to quote scripture, without proper context and balance.For example how about Acts 2:14

" And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." ?

If someone told you he literally "called on the name" of Jesus so therefore he's saved,would you tell him he's correct? The Lord's name is Jesus. So He calls on Jesus' name and this literal "calling on the name" = salvation? That wouldn't make any sense, and of course no one really believes or teaches that. But its the same concept as what you (and many other PCI-type thinkers) seem to propose ,if you say one becomes a child of God just because they "believe" that Jesus is the Christ.

1 John 5:1 is not a proof text of any kind concerning the salvation plan per se; it doesn't even mention repentance, which we know is critical to salvation.

---
So how do you say that anyone who believes and accepts Jesus has the Holy Ghost? What scripture really backs that up?

So back to the question of "how you know a person has received the Holy Ghost?" ... Didn't the believers in Acts 10 know that the new believers in Acts 10 got the Holy Ghost because they spoke in tongues?

"for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" Acts 10:46

Where did the believers ever accept that someone received the Holy Ghost simply because they "accepted Jesus" or "believed" ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sam

I would not say the Samaritans were not saved and did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within until the Apostles came down from the Jerusalem Church. I would say that they were saved when they believed (verse 12). It is recorded in verse 14 that they had received the Word (Jesus). Because they believed and received the Word/Jesus, Philip baptized them (verse 12). We see in a later account that Philip required a profession/confession of faith before he would baptize someone (verses 36 and 37) because he wanted to ascertain that they had been saved or converted first (just as John the Baptist insisted on repentance before he would baptize in water Matthew 3:7-8). In my opinion these folks were saved because they believed and received Jesus (the Word). Then as a result of their faith they were baptized in water. Even though they were saved and had Jesus living within, and were water baptized they had not received the experience that is called by various terms such as:

receiving the Spirit,
being filled with the Spirit,
the Spirit falling upon them,
the Spirit coming upon them,
being endued with power,
being baptized in the Spirit,
receiving the promise of the Father,
being filled with the Spirit

Is this Spirit someone other than Jesus living within? Do we have two Spirits dwelling in us? Jesus and the Spirit?

To be saved then one must believe in the heart and confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus? What about repentance?