------The Parousia of Jesus Christ----------

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Rev

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

(Rev 19:15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Jesus comes to judge and make war. How does he judge? By the sword, or his word.




(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

(Rev 14:18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(Rev 14:19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 14:20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Here Jesus again uses his word (the sickle) to judge Israel. Obviously the city is Jerusalem.


(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Again Jesus is judging by the word of God in the books.

All three are the same event told using different symbolism.

The word of God stands on it's own. Forget the names, or the position one holds.

There are so many more scriptures that would agree with this, but I am restrained from going into more than I already have by the H.G., for the time is not yet!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Rev

There are so many more scriptures that would agree with this, but I am restrained from going into more than I already have by the H.G., for the time is not yet!

Good thread, Rev. I'm still looking over the scriptures so I don't have any input at this time.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

(Rev 19:15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Jesus comes to judge and make war. How does he judge? By the sword, or his word.

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

(Rev 14:18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(Rev 14:19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 14:20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Here Jesus again uses his word (the sickle) to judge Israel. Obviously the city is Jerusalem.

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Again Jesus is judging by the word of God in the books.

All three are the same event told using different symbolism.

The word of God stands on it's own. Forget the names, or the position one holds.

I agree He is judging. But judging while riding a white horse and judging while coming on a cloud is not judging while sitting on a white throne. I always try to abandon preconceived teachings and let the bible speak for itself without my "filters" about what it says. That is why I abandoned futurism. Taking off the futuristic goggles and lenses to read the bible and let the bible says what it says, itself, caused me to deny futurism. Since then, I always study this way.

But to judge out of books and to have the dead raised to be judged so by having THEM BROUGHT to the throne, is not the same as Jesus COMING TO sinners and judging localized judgments on peoples.

The first two are the same, but not the reference in Rev 20.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Would someone please offer me the concrete definition of a dispensationalist?

Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA

Dispensationalism teaches that the Christian Church is a "parenthesis", that is, an interruption in God’s divine dealings with the Jewish people, when the Gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles, but that God’s continued care for the Jewish people will be revealed after the end of the Church Age (or Dispensation), when Israel will be restored to their land, and then they will accept Jesus as their Messiah, as is recorded in Zechariah 12:8-10 (KJV):

Hence, dispensationalists typically believe in a Jewish restoration.

Dispensationalism is also credited with inventing the belief in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church from proof-texting in 1 Thessalonians 4, and Revelation 4.

The error I see is that NO WHERE does the New Testament teach God removes the CHURCH before He restores ISRAEL to Himself salvation.

The CHURCH is for BOTH JEW AND GENTILE: BOTH groups in ONE BODY

Dispensationalism denies this passage of scripture by making the CHURCH GENTILE ONLY, when the scripture says it is for BOTH Jews and Gentiles:

Ephesians 2:11-21 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree He is judging. But judging while riding a white horse and judging while coming on a cloud is not judging while sitting on a white throne. I always try to abandon preconceived teachings and let the bible speak for itself without my "filters" about what it says. That is why I abandoned futurism. Taking off the futuristic goggles and lenses to read the bible and let the bible says what it says, itself, caused me to deny futurism. Since then, I always study this way.

But to judge out of books and to have the dead raised to be judged so by having THEM BROUGHT to the throne, is not the same as Jesus COMING TO sinners and judging localized judgments on peoples.

The first two are the same, but not the reference in Rev 20.

Prove your statement with scripture.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Would someone please offer me the concrete definition of a dispensationalist?

In a nutshell, most dispensationalist also hold the futurist doctrine.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Rev

In a nutshell, most dispensationalist also hold the futurist doctrine.

I'm going to give one more set of scriptures. But that's all.

(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Mat 25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(Mat 25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

It's all there, it agrees with the other three sets of scripture.

Read it carefully!

This is all I can give for now!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

Prove your statement with scripture.

All I said was what the scripture said:

Proof:

I said THE DEAD ARE BROUGHT to Christ in Rev 20:

Revelation 20:12-14 KJV (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I said the Lord COMES TO sinners in Rev 14 and Rev 19: No DEAD are judged.

Revelation 19:11-16 KJV (11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 14:14-20 KJV (14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

As I said, the LORD COMES in rev 14 and Rev 19, BUT NOT Rev 20. The people COME TO HIM.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

All I said was what the scripture said:

Proof:

I said THE DEAD ARE BROUGHT to Christ in Rev 20:



I said the Lord COMES TO sinners in Rev 14 and Rev 19: No DEAD are judged.



As I said, the LORD COMES in rev 14 and Rev 19, BUT NOT Rev 20. The people COME TO HIM.

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
(Rev 14:15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
(Rev 14:16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
(Rev 14:17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

The earth was reaped before the judgment on Jerusalem!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
(Rev 14:15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
(Rev 14:16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
(Rev 14:17) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

The earth was reaped before the judgment on Jerusalem!

Do you mean to say that IMPLIES the DEAD are involved? Are you basing your doctrine on an assumed IMPLICATION?

"REAPED" does not necessarily refer to the dead, brother. Why did you imply the DEAD are involved? You have to insert that thought, since the bible is not saying it.

Gathering people in protection, which Christ said he was willing to do with Jerusalem, but she would not, is not the same as raising the dead for white throne judgment.

You asked me for scripture to prove my point, so I now ask you to prove that REAPING refers to resurrecting the dead in all cases.