------The Parousia of Jesus Christ----------

[Rev]

At the Parousia, or at the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, will he come on a......

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Or

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Or

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Rev

At the Parousia, or at the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, will he come on a......

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Or

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Or

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Where are all of the bible scholars?

[TK Burk]

A simple answer is: “YES!”

Look at this:

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Here Jesus is said to be coming in “like manner” as they saw Him go. They did not see a horse or throne at Jesus’ ascension. That makes this passage problematic if each of these occurrences were to ‘literally’ take place at Jesus’ Parousia. Since God’s Word is always in agreement one with another, we need to look to see how these do agree. The first step in this is to ask whether the issue in Acts 1 is the ‘cloud’ or is it the way in which Jesus departed? If it is the ‘cloud,’ then the ‘horse’ and ‘throne’ conflict; but if it’s about the way Jesus ascended, then we find agreement. This conformity comes when one sees the ‘cloud,’ ‘horse,’ and ‘throne’ are not speaking of literal instances, but are instead referring to biblical imagery. This is the same hermeneutic used elsewhere when interpreting the meaning of the prophetic language of the Bible.

So your answer is; each of these is in agreement with what would occur during Jesus’ coming. The ‘cloud’ is glory; the ‘horse’ is war; the ‘throne’ is authority. To see this simply look up how the Bible already uses these images in prophetic language. The Bible always interprets itself if a person is willing to study it through.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

A simple answer is: “YES!”

Look at this:

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Here Jesus is said to be coming in “like manner” as they saw Him go. They did not see a horse or throne at Jesus’ ascension. That makes this passage problematic if each of these occurrences were to ‘literally’ take place at Jesus’ Parousia. Since God’s Word is always in agreement one with another, we need to look to see how these do agree. The first step in this is to ask whether the issue in Acts 1 is the ‘cloud’ or is it the way in which Jesus departed? If it is the ‘cloud,’ then the ‘horse’ and ‘throne’ conflict; but if it’s about the way Jesus ascended, then we find agreement. This conformity comes when one sees the ‘cloud,’ ‘horse,’ and ‘throne’ are not speaking of literal instances, but are instead referring to biblical imagery. This is the same hermeneutic used elsewhere when interpreting the meaning of the prophetic language of the Bible.

So your answer is; each of these is in agreement with what would occur during Jesus’ coming. The ‘cloud’ is glory; the ‘horse’ is war; the ‘throne’ is authority. To see this simply look up how the Bible already uses these images in prophetic language. The Bible always interprets itself if a person is willing to study it through.

Good answer.

The fact is that all three sets of scripture discribe the same event while using a different symbol.

Much of the book of revelation is the same events told over and over again while using different symbols.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

At the Parousia, or at the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, will he come on a......

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Or

(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Or

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

First of all, are you dispensationalist?

These first two references are not speaking of the second coming of Jesus. Only the third is.

Dispensationalists agree they ARE the second coming. But with Rev 20:11, Dispensationalism teaches this occurs AFTER THE 1000 years.

I propose the truth is that these first two references are coming in judgment against Jerusalem only. The third one is the resurrection/rapture that takes us to the white throne judgment with no thousand years after the rapture.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

First of all, are you dispensationalist?

These first two references are not speaking of the second coming of Jesus. Only the third is.

Dispensationalists agree they ARE the second coming. But with Rev 20:11, Dispensationalism teaches this occurs AFTER THE 1000 years.

I propose the truth is that these first two references are coming in judgment against Jerusalem only. The third one is the resurrection/rapture that takes us to the white throne judgment with no thousand years after the rapture.

What is happening in each set of scriptures?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

What is happening in each set of scriptures?

Although you never offered your answers to MY questions, I will answer your's, while looking to read your answers in your future posts.

In rev 14 and 19 HE IS COMING in JUDGMENT. In Rev 20 He is SITTING in judgment. Difference!

The common denominator WHITE in all three passages is nothing by which we can establish a commonality that proves synonymous time periods. ...to say the least!

Rev 14 shows the harvest of the wheat and the judgment of the winepress of Christ. The winepress was trod and Jerusalem was the victim.

Jerusalem is the city.

Revelation 14:20 KJV And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Lamentations 1:8 KJV Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

Lamentations 1:15 KJV The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.

Jerusalem was guilty of ALL RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED, adn she would have blood to drink.

Matthew 23:34-37 KJV Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Revelation 16:6 KJV For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Blood from the winepress is blood to drink.

The BIBLE never said this about any other city except JERUSALEM.

Rev 19 is Jesus coming in JUDGMENT again. Not in resurrection salvation of redemption.

Revelation 19:11 KJV And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

He does not bring redemption.

This is war. There is no warring by the saints coming with Him... it is a spiritual picture not to be taken literally. A SHARP SWORD COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH.

Revelation 19:15 KJV And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The winepress here is the same one in Rev 14.

Rev 20 is totally different. It is JUDGMENT from the THRONE of all souls. Church included. The resurrection never occurred in Rev 14 or Rev 19. But in Rev 20 it occurs.


My thoughts, anyway.

[Mrs. LPW]

Would someone please offer me the concrete definition of a dispensationalist?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Rev

Good answer.

The fact is that all three sets of scripture discribe the same event while using a different symbol.

Much of the book of revelation is the same events told over and over again while using different symbols.

Thank you! It's easy to understand the Bible when all things are left in context.

I also agree that these three passages are speaking of the same event.

I am glad you understand that Revelation is mostly imagery. That, in itself, is a huge revelation!

Be blessed.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Although you never offered your answers to MY questions, I will answer your's, while looking to read your answers in your future posts.

In rev 14 and 19 HE IS COMING in JUDGMENT. In Rev 20 He is SITTING in judgment. Difference!

The common denominator WHITE in all three passages is nothing by which we can establish a commonality that proves synonymous time periods. ...to say the least!

Rev 14 shows the harvest of the wheat and the judgment of the winepress of Christ. The winepress was trod and Jerusalem was the victim.

Jerusalem is the city.



Jerusalem was guilty of ALL RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED, adn she would have blood to drink.



Blood from the winepress is blood to drink.

The BIBLE never said this about any other city except JERUSALEM.

Rev 19 is Jesus coming in JUDGMENT again. Not in resurrection salvation of redemption.



He does not bring redemption.

This is war. There is no warring by the saints coming with Him... it is a spiritual picture not to be taken literally. A SHARP SWORD COMES OUT OF HIS MOUTH.



The winepress here is the same one in Rev 14.

Rev 20 is totally different. It is JUDGMENT from the THRONE of all souls. Church included. The resurrection never occurred in Rev 14 or Rev 19. But in Rev 20 it occurs.


My thoughts, anyway.

(Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

(Rev 19:15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Jesus comes to judge and make war. How does he judge? By the sword, or his word.




(Rev 14:14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

(Rev 14:18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(Rev 14:19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 14:20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Here Jesus again uses his word (the sickle) to judge Israel. Obviously the city is Jerusalem.


(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Again Jesus is judging by the word of God in the books.

All three are the same event told using different symbolism.

The word of God stands on it's own. Forget the names, or the position one holds.