The Times...They are a-Changin'

[rgcraig]

Completely agree Carp!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.



Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."



The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

The post above is an ode to a dying day. It is not a dying day because the model is useless. It is a dying day because they shun and attack all those who have a different vision. Not a different message. Just a different method. Self inflicted attrition is a strong force and little can survive it's effect.

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the most effective for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Because our priorities outside the message itself differ from their own they see us as aloof and undedicated.

They are quick to judge us and make all manner of accusation against what they will never attempt to understand.

So I toil among them. Loving them. Ministering to the saints of their churches. And awaiting the day. Awaiting the inevitable day that this paradigm shift will occur in earnest. They don't know I am here because they would ridicule and ostracize if they knew my thoughts so I am content to serve them... and serve them well... as I await the day that God makes the change and I hope that, at that time, my God sees that I have been a faithful, non judgmental and patient servant of His Kingdom no matter the paradigm that I serve Him under.

In that day... some will be surprised at how quickly I became "one of them" because they never knew that I was one of them all the time. We are here. We are temporarily silent. And we are many.

We await the day that the dream God has placed within us because a reality. When God places a dream it will come to pass. One need only walk in patience and belief.

BTW... It is SO good to hear from you Carp.

[nahkoe]

I'm one of these too. I don't, currently, serve in the current model. I can't seem to find my place. I'm not necessary, and I shake the foundations that some hold so dear without having any intention of doing it. I'm fiercely loyal. I'd gladly serve in whatever capacity I was needed in. But I've found I'm not welcome in some places, for a multitude of reasons. So I just wait.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

This post is an ode to a dying day.

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the best for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Because our priorities outside the message itself differ from their own they see us as aloof and undedicated.

They are quick to judge us and make all manner of accusation against what they will never attempt to understand.

So I toil among them. Loving them. Ministering to the saints of their churches. And awaiting the day. Awaiting the inevitable day that this paradigm shift will occur in earnest. They don't know I am here because they would ridicule and ostracize if they knew my thoughts so I am content to serve them... and serve them well... as I await the day that God makes the change and I hope that, at that time, my God sees that I have been a faithful, non judgmental and patient servant of His Kingdom no matter the paradigm that I serve Him under.

In that day... some will be surprised at how quickly I became "one of them" because they never knew that I was one of them all the time. We are here. We are temporarily silent. And we are many.

We await the day that the dream God has placed within us because a reality. When God places a dream it will come to pass. One need only walk in patience and belief.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I'm one of these too. I don't, currently, serve in the current model. I can't seem to find my place. I'm not necessary, and I shake the foundations that some hold so dear without having any intention of doing it. I'm fiercely loyal. I'd gladly serve in whatever capacity I was needed in. But I've found I'm not welcome in some places, for a multitude of reasons. So I just wait.

I think this is true for so many people. I see it as a hopeful thing that so many serve and/or not serve with such patience and love toward those who refuse to show the same toward them.

It is building within us patience toward others and a spirit that is akin to our Christ.

On those foundations we can go far when the time is right.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The problem is that too many... especially of the passing paradigm... feel that the method is as important as the message.

The method sheds it's skin from time to time. Probably once per generation. The method changes. The error is in seeing people in error for no longer agreeing with the previous method.

I agree with you. The methods do change but the basics don't change. Commitment, loyalty, faithfulness, priority, cleanliness, holiness, sanctification, does not change.

The seeker sensitive church of today has changed the "method" but they also changed the "message" and the "basics" of Christianity. This is why there is such a weak church today.

I am one of those who serves in the current model.

I hold offices. I am a preacher. I have been known to speak at camp meetings and fellowship meetings and will do so again.

I get behind that pulpit and I preach the message. I don't feel that many aspects of the method are the best for our day and hour but I don't see any profit or Godliness in using the pulpit to destroy what is now in place.

Based on scripture it is through the foolishness of preaching that man is saved. You can't change that fact. You can change the delivery style, location, etc but fundamentals are fundamentals

They don't know that I am "one of those". There are many of us who are "one of those". We long for and work toward a different day and yet serve with all our might in this present day. I will never fight the current model but I will be ready when the next model comes to life. I have been ready for years.

Again I agree with you....ouch this post is hurting me Music is a prime example. It appears that with each new move of the Spirit a new type of music comes with it. Those that are unwilling to move with the Spirit get stuck in the past. I get that.

What I am against is this new theology that thinks the church has to get or mimic the world in order to be successful or reach a dying generation.

Bottom line is those who do not know Christ have a big gaping hole in their heart. It doesn't matter how good they look on the outside they are hurting and need the truth not some sissy religion. The church is not a petting zoo, it's a place where lives are CHANGED.

Why don't they know that I am one of those? Because those who are sold out to a paradigm judge us too quickly because our methods are different.

Again, I agree with you. Like the old saying the "Prophets of one move of God become the Pharisees of the next move." But this is not my point. My point is that human nature is not difficult to figure out. That's why the devil is so successful because we are all the same.

It's like in politics, people talk about how we have "progressed." We have progressed we are doing the same thing that has been done for centuries. It's just been repacked with new words to describe it.

Because our tree is not planted in their orchard they say our tree is not planted.

Yup...this is very true in OP circles who think that trinitarians are not saved. They've planted the tree different so they are not planted even though they have done a big job in getting this gospel around the world

The bottom line is that God is in control and those who walk with God will see all that God is going to do. God's not "stuck" but there are many Christians who are stuck.

It is amazing that in the day and age we live in that the world knows what the "church" (building) is. They don't confuse it with the bar, the drug store, or the mall. When they get in trouble they know where to run. it is only the modern Christian who is trying to run from it and calling it a God thing.

The sinner who knows that their life needs "fixed", the mother who baby is dying, or the family whose marriage is falling apart doesn't want to run to some guys house down the street and have a Bible study. They run to the preacher who can help them.

We have many people in our town who go to other places to worship because they have all the entertainment or they don't have to give financially or it's convienant. But when they really need help they call us.

God's system works!

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

And I propose that the ones who have, and do, live like this and don't claim a church or organization are refusing to align themselves with churches and organizations that will hold them in their past, in the rut they're already stuck in and working to get out of. Too many churches and congregations are ill prepared to move people from their past to their future.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

And in what way is the church prepared to deal with people who are coming from a past that's not church based? I don't line up with anyone's idea of what a Christian should look like, but I'm not who I was.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."

I am like a tree planted. I don't exactly understand how or when that happened, nor do I understand exactly how I can still struggle, and fail, where I do and still be planted. But I do know that I am. I'm definitely not planted within any walls. Some have made it pretty clear I'm not welcome. I decided pretty early on that it's my problem and it's my responsibility to get to where I'm going. I don't claim a church, I don't claim an organization, because I can't risk falling with one of them or being crushed by one while it rises and I struggle to make the next rung of the ladder.

[OnTheFritz]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.



Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."



The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

That is a very broad brush you are using. With all due respect, it's simply ignorant to claim that those of my generation are all "typically unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives." simply because they don't view things the way you do. And frankly, it's this "back in my day..." mindset that is unproductive and obnoxious enough to make the change worthwhile . There is nothing inherently wrong with a people-based set of loyalites vs.an organization-based one. For instance, I have worked with the same people for nearly 20 years because of personal friendships and loyalties that outlasted many of the organizations of which we were a part. We have seen the abuse that comes from organizations both corporate and religious. And while structure can be good, every once in a while, you need to tear it all down and start over. Clean out the cobwebs and remind those in charge that they are only there because the people put them there.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

The sinner who knows that their life needs "fixed", the mother who baby is dying, or the family whose marriage is falling apart doesn't want to run to some guys house down the street and have a Bible study. They run to the preacher who can help them.

I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.

God's system works!

But what is God's system?

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I'm not sure this is true. Not unless they were raised in church. Otherwise, the hurting person will reach out so someONE in their life who has demonstrated God's love to them. A person. They don't care if you offer them the help they need while they are sitting in your living room.

Exactly.

[Raven]

Carpenter
You are exactly right. Change is happening even now and nothing can prevent it. It is all a part of God's process and we must move with it.

Raven