Any willing to answer my question?

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.

Bro. Epley,


If the local church in question belongs to an organization, the pastor is subject to a higher office. As a matter of fact, pastors being subjected to a higher office is scriptural. Please allow me to provide scripture. We read in Galatians 1:6, Paul is addressing the church of Galatia for entertaining false teachings.

Take notice, Paul doesn't address the pastors alone, but he addresses the pastors and congregants as a whole as "you foolish Galatians." This leads me to believe that:

1) Pastors and congregants can have truth, and can begin entertaining unscriptural teachings and be classified as fools.

2) If these Galatia pastors hadn't detoured to fulfill their own agenda, and fulfilled their responsibilities, Paul wouldn't have addressed the church of Galatia as fools.

3) Leadership must be subjected to higher leadership, which leaves me wondering if these independent pastors are being rebellious to what clearly the bible identifies as scriptural. Paul stated be imitators of him, and obviously he praticed pastoralship subjection to a higher office.


We also read within multiple text, including in Acts 14:23, Paul had appointed pastors, and these pastors were subject to a higher office, thus, we see this same structure within an organization, which is scriptural.

So yes brother Epley, you said well when stating:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account........



When these brethren pulled out of the UPCI, after being advised not to by their leaders, and yet they still left, they're found in rebellion to their leaders and the word of God. This also leaves me wondering if these pastors are backslidden and going to hell, just as they accuse those individuals that leave their groups!


hmmm..........

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Bro. Epley,


If the local church in question belongs to an organization, the pastor is subject to a higher office. As a matter of fact, pastors being subjected to a higher office is scriptural. Please allow me to provide scripture. We read in Galatians 1:6, Paul is addressing the church of Galatia for entertaining false teachings.

Take notice, Paul doesn't address the pastors alone, but he addresses the pastors and congregants as a whole as "you foolish Galatians." This leads me to believe that:

1) Pastors and congregants can have truth, and can begin entertaining unscriptural teachings and be classified as fools.

2) If these Galatia pastors hadn't detoured to fulfill their own agenda, and fulfilled their responsibilities, Paul wouldn't have addressed the church of Galatia as fools.

3) Leadership must be subjected to higher leadership, which leaves me wondering if these independent pastors are being rebellious to what clearly the bible identifies as scriptural. Paul stated be imitators of him, and obviously he praticed pastoralship subjection to a higher office.


We also read within multiple text, including in Acts 14:23, Paul had appointed pastors, and these pastors were subject to a higher office, thus, we see this same structure within an organization, which is scriptural.

So yes brother Epley, you said well when stating:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account........



When these brethren pulled out of the UPCI, after being advised not to by their leaders, and yet they still left, they're found in rebellion to their leaders and the word of God. This also leaves me wondering if these pastors are backslidden and going to hell, just as they accuse those individuals that leave their groups!


hmmm..........

I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.

[HopePreacher]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:.

1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.

True, but Paul was also under the authority of the apostolic council in Jerusalem, to wit Acts 15

3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.

True: but when one joins an organization then that organization becomes the authority to which one has submitted oneself and is thereby etically bound to follow that authority except when to do so would jeopardize ones walk with God.

4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.

True: except that what minister do you know who has submitted to the authority of another minister and who follows that other minister even when they are in disagreement with him?


What has been my experience is that strong minded leaders who do not want to submit to another leader will at some point repeat the mistakes of the leader they would not submit to.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.

Bro. Epley,


I don't think you're understanding the simplicity in my statements. Men submit to leaders when obtaining a ministerial license within the UPCI. This is the same actions Paul practiced, just vice-versa.

(Example: Paul appoints pastors, pastors are now submitted to Paul. A man receives his pastoral license within the UPCI, he willingly submits himself to a UPCI leader)

As you so plainly said, Hebrews 13:17; Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.......


I find it strange that these men can disobey their leader and flee the UPCI, and claim God's will. Yet, if a minister/ congregant leaves these conservative inner-circles, you're a child of Satan.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.

Hmmmm No scripture teaches that men must shave but you impose this doctrine on the men of your church.

That is an unscriptural teaching, therefore no divine authority is being disobeyed by a man who comes to your church with facial hair.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack a thread but when I see such inconsistency, i can't resist.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Hmmmm No scripture teaches that men must shave but you impose this doctrine on the men of your church.

That is an unscriptural teaching, therefore no divine authority is being disobeyed by a man who comes to your church with facial hair.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack a thread but when I see such inconsistency, i can't resist.

NOT pastoring so above my pay level.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

NOT pastoring so above my pay level.

Sorry Steve, should have said imposed in the past tense.

Glad to know, that you are no longer pastoring, that you would allow facial hair on men if you went back to pastoring, since there is clearly no bible that even remotely would give you such divine authority.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.

Firstly, I'm encouraged by 1 Cor's question. Who-da-thunk-it?

Next, there is something of an heirarchy already established even in NT times. Peter went to the apostles in Jerusalem to validate the experience of the Gentiles in Acts 10. Paul conferred with and received the "laying on of hands" (a subordinate role) from the apostles and prophets in Jerusalem.

It is a complex matter, but not one that is as cut and dried as your "apples and oranges" would seem to suggest. I'm almost certain that you recognize a series of subjection and oversight among the brethren, don't you?

It's the appearance of a "fast and loose" type of committment being displayed by some that gives rise to these questions. I'm afraid 1 Cor will probably go a long time without an answer.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.

So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.

[Tim Rutledge]

Originally Posted by Neck

So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.

A real Bishop IMO. is a Pastor who started a church then placed a pastor into that Church and he'd go on to help or start another work. And yes you always answer to your Bishop (overseer).