Who are we accountable to part II

[Godsdrummer]

Do I believe that God ordained dictators to rule the body of Christ? NO, absolutely not. Hidden within the meaning of the word rule is the responsibility to govern. Those who are chosen by God to be placed in the position of ministry need to do so according to God's purpose for their callings, among which are:
- Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ
- Facilitating the reconciliation of lost humanity to God
- Teaching sound doctrine
- Perfecting the saints
- Ministering to the Church
- Edifying the body of Christ
- Watching lest any should slip
- Being examples to the flock of God

Here is what I see, in the list you put forth above you want to state that these positions are for an elite group only and the rest of the people of God are intended to always stay saints.

And that is boulderdash, every single thing you listed is commanded of every child of God. Not just a select few.

I did not see the line I posted on another group so I will post it again here, If I already posted it well sorry.

When one goes from leading to driving they are no longer a leader. Or when one puts a fence around a herd of sheep they are no longer a sheephard but a hireling. And this is where the christian world has come.

You ask about the different verses that the word rule are used the primary verse I am refering to is Hebrews 13:17 Where the word we use the word "obey" those that have the rule". Where the word "obey" here means "by pursuasion" in other words as Paul teaches we are to "follow him as he follows Christ."

In most Christian churches we have gone beyond the scope of where God inteded the eldership or leadership to go. There are always elders and or leaders, just as there is always a father in the family. But when the father no longer fulfilles his proper role as father he is only a father by title.

The religious leaders of Christ day had done just this they had legalized the law then set themselves up as judges over everyone else. Again this is never what God intended of his people. God never put a separation between himself and those he was reaching in his earthly ministry why should we, call ourselves ministers and set ourselves separate from those we are to be ministering to.

Further just by example God did not set one to be pastor over his church in Jerusalem he set or gave 12. We have allowed by virtue of our example a dictatorship form of governemt to arise in the Kingdom of God whether one wants to admit it or not. We call him a pastor a word only used in anything like that in context once in the word, and that is Ephesians 4 we have given this "pastor" the authority consitant within all of the gifts God gave to the body wraped into one man. And then we say this is what God intended?

I state this again "if you want a king like the children of Isreal, when they told Samual, "give us a king so we can be like all the nations around us". Fine I choose to continue a personal relationship with my God. with his gifts working within me and others to equip each and every one of us.

But to say this is the way God intended things to be from the begining and if you don't follow this way of thinking you will be lost Im not buying it.

I won't drink the Kool-aid.

This idea that the few must oversee the masses comes not from the word of God but rather the teachings and traditions of the RCC. If you don't beleive me search it our yourself. They are the ones that said "only the church can interpret scripture" Why do you think that for several hundred years only the church had bibles? It was the only way they could control the masses, they knew if the masses ever started to read the word for themselves they would find all the lies.

Ah well to each his/her own God can work within the confines of our religous groups just not as well as he can outside those traditions.

[HRea]

I'm going to respond to some things "out of order" only because of how I'm considering these things:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And that is boulderdash, every single thing you listed is commanded of every child of God. Not just a select few.

The scope of what I was talking about was limited to the 5-fold ministry, not the body of Christ in general. NOWHERE did I say that the list was for a select few - only that those whom God set in these place should be diligent to exhibit these things. This is Paul's teaching to those with more responsibility to their brethren.

As pertaining to the body as a whole, each member should seek to develop each one of those things in the list. HOWEVER, each member is not capable until they have matured (or more accurately - as they mature and exercise their spiritual senses). This becomes a shame to those member who will not/can not/refuse to grow spiritually. Both Peter and Paul had something to say about those members in the body who didn't grow up.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Here is what I see, in the list you put forth above you want to state that these positions are for an elite group only and the rest of the people of God are intended to always stay saints.

This is a hard saying for some to swallow but I'll say it anyway: THERE IS most certainly an elite group, not of their own declaration, but of their own choosing, diligence, and action. The greatest among us are the servants of all. The lazy and boastful may demand consideration and praise of men, but until they become true ministers to the body of Christ (and graduate from God's nursery), they cannot be included in the "elite group".

Is this elite group only for those whom "God has set"? NO! The elite group is composed of those who are maturing spiritually. A lot of times we get this backward. You don't become a minister in order to "join the club"; you should already be there before you become part of the ministry. Paul warned against novices being lifted up by their own pride falling into folly.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

In most Christian churches we have gone beyond the scope of where God inteded the eldership or leadership to go. There are always elders and or leaders, just as there is always a father in the family. But when the father no longer fulfilles his proper role as father he is only a father by title.

But to say this is the way God intended things to be from the begining and if you don't follow this way of thinking you will be lost Im not buying it.

I won't drink the Kool-aid.

I think these 3 quotes capture the spirit of the rest of your reply - and I agree. Anytime you "go beyond" what God intended, you've gone too far. It's as dangerous of trying to figure God's word out using natural reasoning ("don't you think that this means this or that?")

Eldership was always the best model in the Bible. The elder taught the younger AND oversaw the younger putting into practice what was taught, giving advice and additional instruction (or correction if needed). Then, the younger progressed until they became the elder, and the cycle repeated.

Jesus himself rejected the lord/serf model, and Peter reiterated this rejection.

HOWEVER, the body of Christ cannot function properly or minister to itself as God intended until there is spiritual growth. When spiritual growth is lacking, self-will and not the Holy Ghost, is in control and we get all sorts of wacky ideas of how the church should function.