born of water

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Born of Water

Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


The Acts 2:38 message was first preached by Moses, at the base of the mount. It is confirmed throughout the Acts accounts, and is our very core doctrine. Water baptism…by complete immersion…in the name of Jesus Christ, is clearly a foundation stone of the new covenant. But to teach this water baptism from our text verse in John, is wrong.

Many ministers misquote this passage to read, “except a man be born again of water and of the spirit…” Not of any ill intent…but in zealous support of our position on water baptism. Our sanctioned bible study “In My Father’s House”…in Room One, paragraph three, finds the honorable Elder Yonts saying: “When we are baptized in Jesus’ name, we are born of the water.” Even the marginal notes of a Thompson Chain Reference Bible…here in John…states: 756-Baptism enjoined (1) Acts 2:38.

But the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, has nothing to do with water baptism. The whole crux of their discussion is new birth. Not death (repentance)…not burial (water baptism)…but new birth. Moreover, great plainness of speech is used, to show that this new birth is entirely spiritual in nature. It is an anointing seal…given only by our Lord…to each one personally.


What is ironic, is that in every reference to water baptism, we ourselves concur that the rite represents a burial, or a grave. Only here in John, do we reverse our hermeneutic, and make water baptism part of a birth experience. There are ample scriptures in the bible to support baptism in Jesus’ name. But in rightly divided scripture, this text in John is not among them.


Jesus’ first words on the matter state:
Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
And at the last, he closes the argument with these words:
The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.


No mention of water baptism, or water birth, in either the intro or the summary, of our Lord’s lesson. He teaches that the new birth…the born again moment…is a single, spiritual birth. Is it prefaced with a death and a burial? With repentance and water baptism? Yes, the scriptures bear this out. It is the usual order, and thus we so teach.
There simply is no tenable argument; against the process of salvation mirroring the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Moses prophesied this in the altar of death, the laver of washing, and the presence of God in the holiest place. But the new birth is the resurrection part of that process. The born of the spirit here taught, is the climax of that salvation experience. We need not drag the laver into the holy place.
Born of water is mentioned a single time in their discussion. A befuddled Nicodemus asks Jesus:
How can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb?
Concerning that natural birth, Jesus teaches:
Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Jesus is here drawing a contrast between two births…not encouraging a new, two-part birth. The fleshly birth from a nine month amniotic sac, is not enough Nicodemus. You must be born again. It is the Lord himself making the argument here; that born of water, and born of the flesh, are synonymous terms. Paul echoes the same argument in Galatians; as does Peter, in his comparison between corruptible seed, and incorruptible seed.
The fact that you’re sitting here reading this, affirms you’re halfway there. You’ve made it through born of water. You out-rassled millions upon millions of other sperm cells, and qualified for life. But having so done, you now must be born again. Your water birth gave you this life. Your spiritual birth gives you life everlasting. You must be born again.

I just want to touch on the words I highlighted.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God." No, that is not referring to water baptism. Simply stated, it means that a man cannot see God's kingdom unless the Father reveals it. I'm surprised many scholars cannot understand that! The word "gennao" is translated "born": it has two definitions. (1) born, begotten; and (2) birthed, come out of the womb. Nicodemus only understood the first part, so he said: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb?" The Lord went further into his explanation, saying: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter in..."

Why would anyone deny water baptism? Jesus said, "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." Once more: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." But a man will see and believe only what he wants.

[Originalist]

I agree with the original poster 100%. Water baptisms precedes the new birth. The necessity of water baptism as part of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and as a step towards salvation does not rise and fall with John 3:5.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I just want to touch on the words I highlighted.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God." No, that is not referring to water baptism. Simply stated, it means that a man cannot see God's kingdom unless the Father reveals it. I'm surprised many scholars cannot understand that! The word "gennao" is translated "born": it has two definitions. (1) born, begotten; and (2) birthed, come out of the womb. Nicodemus only understood the first part, so he said: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb?" The Lord went further into his explanation, saying: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter in..."

Why would anyone deny water baptism? Jesus said, "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." Once more: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." But a man will see and believe only what he wants.

Why would anyone accuse someone of denying water baptism when they are not? BTW I was hoping you would respond to my answer to your comment on the other thread....

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...t=46434&page=4

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The necessity of water baptism as part of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and as a step towards salvation does not rise and fall with John 3:5.

amen to that--i seriously doubt that many--or any--of those sheep asking, "When did we..?" (do those things that got them 'saved') at the Separation Parable would even grasp any of this thread!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The necessity of water baptism as part of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and as a step towards salvation does not rise and fall with John 3:5.

Amen.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by jfrog

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


What the "baptism and spirit filled required for the new birth believers" confess is that only "being born of the Spirit" makes one half-born again. Yet, Jesus spoke of those "born of the Spirit" as if they were fully born again. How can that be?

The Spirit is intricately involved in water baptism and spirit baptism. Being "born of the Spirit" is not another way of saying "Spirit baptism" but being "born of the Spirit"is the same as saying being" born of water and the Spirit."

[obriencp]

I agree 100% with the opening post.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Water and Spirit are seen in several places, with water alluding to water baptism in each case.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

in Ephesians, Christ died so he could wash us and present us to Himself as perfect. That is baptism. It is by the word because it is only through faith in what we are doing according to His word that baptism moves God to destroy our old man and remove everything that was repulsive to Him about us. Sins are gone and we are presented to him without spot or wrinkle.

The Titus passage mentions washing of regeneration. Again, the Spirit is never delineated as the washing agent. It sounds lyrically nice to sing a hymn about it, but it is strictly not that biblical. The Holy Ghost renews. It's clearly references to Acts 2:38. Even non-Spirit-filled scholars attest to this issue of water baptism in John 3, such as Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes and John Gill.

It always bothers me when people bring up the Titus passage and relate it to water baptism. Water baptism is NOT associated with regeneration. So if you're to bring up the "washing" part of that sentence, you must also deal with the "regeneration" part of that sentence. Regeneration is a function of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 is talking about how the Spirit regenerates and renews. Certainly you are not a baptismal regenerist are you?

Also, regarding the Ephesians passage, are you suggesting that water baptism sanctifies us?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The Spirit is intricately involved in water baptism and spirit baptism. Being "born of the Spirit" is not another way of saying "Spirit baptism" but being "born of the Spirit"is the same as saying being" born of water and the Spirit."

Think about what you are saying for a moment. If being born of spirit means being born of water and the spirit then Jesus saying you must be born of water and the spirit is actually Jesus saying you must be born of water and of water and the spirit. Do you really think that's the best way to read John 3:5?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I agree 100% with the opening post.



It always bothers me when people bring up the Titus passage and relate it to water baptism. Water baptism is NOT associated with regeneration. So if you're to bring up the "washing" part of that sentence, you must also deal with the "regeneration" part of that sentence. Regeneration is a function of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 is talking about how the Spirit regenerates and renews. Certainly you are not a baptismal regenerist are you?

Also, regarding the Ephesians passage, are you suggesting that water baptism sanctifies us?

Water is water baptism and regeneration is Spirit baptism. It's a combination work written there. Water baptism and spirit baptism are considered as accompanying words to sanctify not one on its own in this context.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I agree 100% with the opening post.



It always bothers me when people bring up the Titus passage and relate it to water baptism. Water baptism is NOT associated with regeneration. So if you're to bring up the "washing" part of that sentence, you must also deal with the "regeneration" part of that sentence. Regeneration is a function of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 is talking about how the Spirit regenerates and renews. Certainly you are not a baptismal regenerist are you?

Also, regarding the Ephesians passage, are you suggesting that water baptism sanctifies us?

Amen. The UPCI's official stance is that water baptism is not associated with regeneration.