Conundrum: Not saved by works. Condemned by them?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How is it that our works condemn us if they cannot save us?

Sin and unbelief condemns us. Not good deeds

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, and actually as the doctrine is an attempt to separate manifesting Christ from receiving Him a la a salvation experience, your answer was about as good as it gets. But while it can be established in Scripture, i think it does a disservice to Christ's Word suggesting that manifesting Christ in the now, loving your neighbor if you will, or whipping some profiteers from the temple, whatever, are actions that either come from the heart or do not, iow you would do them anyway because they are the right thing to do.

And there is no law for this; prolly you might even be breaking some law. And so 'not saved by works, but condemned by them' is just another ploy to move us back to the courtroom, and move salvation off to some past--at acceptance--or future--at being accepted because of works--date, when neither reflects service, now.

A friend of mine was commenting recently, they do an online game with several other people, he had set everything up, was going great, then found out everything he had done was not being uploaded, so as far as everyone else in the universe was concerned he was doing nothing at all. It was all on his system alone.

Kind of like people who are trapped in their own reality with no connection to the outside, yet aren't aware of it.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Sin and unbelief condemns us. Not good deeds

That's the point. Our bad works (aka sins) condemn us. Our good ones do nothing for us.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Great question!

What is it about our works that brings condemnation? It is the fact that we have transgressed the law, because 'sin is the transgression of the law'. So then sin = crime. Once we have that basic understanding, the question becomes solvable.

Imagine a person commits various crimes, and are then caught. They go to court. They are charged with the crimes they have committed. Suppose they plead 'Oh but wait! I obey the speed limits, I obey this and that law,' etc. The court will still find them guilty, because their obedience to some laws does not overcome their violation of other laws: they are still GUILTY CRIMINALS.

Now, suppose the court grants them a pardon upon condition of repentance. In order for the pardon to be granted, certain other requirements must be met - not by the accused, but by the government itself, to ensure the system of law and order doesn't break down and result in anarchy by the offering of pardon - and let's say they are met. So all that remains is for the accused to accept the offer of pardon and return to being a productive citizen.

Now, their works (obedience to the laws) are not what procured their pardon and their escape from punishment - that was an act of clemency by the government in granting pardon to them. But suppose they return to a life of crime... does their pardon cover their new crimes? Of course not, so then they would be found in violation of the terms of their pardon (repentance), would be found to be criminals, and would suffer the penalty of the law.

Thankfully, God is even more merciful than that, in that he allows backsliders who were once pardoned, and who fell back into crime, to repent and be restored to the condition of pardon they had received.

But, we can see that one's actions or deeds can indeed lead to condemnation, and yet still not be sufficient for justification.

I would think that your system should be seen as a system where good works save you. Sure you couldn't have become free without the pardon but you cannot stay free without the good works (aka not sinning).

So your system is works based. Even though there may be unlimited pardons offered. In the end all the pardon does is give you a fresh start to attempt to not sin again.

I would submit that good works in your system are necessary for salvation but not sufficient by their selves. I would also submit that unlimited pardons are not sufficient for salvation but only a necessary condition as well. Because without good works (aka not sinning) you would immediately be placed back in jail.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

That's the point. Our bad works (aka sins) condemn us. Our good ones do nothing for us.

Why should they?

Let me ask you. If a Murderer stands before a judge and says he should go free because he likes to feed stray dogs, should the judge let him go?

You see, sin is death. We have all sinned and our punishment is death. There isnt anything you can do to change that

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I would think that your system should be seen as a system where good works save you. Sure you couldn't have become free without the pardon but you cannot stay free without the good works (aka not sinning).

So your system is works based. Even though there may be unlimited pardons offered. In the end all the pardon does is give you a fresh start to attempt to not sin again.

I would submit that good works in your system are necessary for salvation but not sufficient by their selves. I would also submit that unlimited pardons are not sufficient for salvation but only a necessary condition as well. Because without good works (aka not sinning) you would immediately be placed back in jail.

So then you believe that a non-works based system would mean a person is saved regardless of whether they sin or not? So then a person can be pardoned, and continue in rebellion, and be fine?

So in other words, suppose a criminal lives a life of crime, then receives a pardon, and his sentence is set aside, his record is wiped clean, he gets a new chance with a clean slate. And suppose that person never stops his life of crime, but just continues robbing banks, molesting kids, running his pimp operation, uses his cell phone while driving through school zones, sells government secrets to foreign governments, etc. And it would be good, right, and 'gracious' for the government to say 'hey, we pardoned him, he's good to go!'

I submit that if that actually happened, you would object to the injustice and wrongfulness of such a government policy. Unless YOU were the unrepentant criminal in question, of course...

Obedience to God is a CONDITION of salvation, absolutely. But that doesn't mean 'saved by works'. Salvation includes both the receiving of a pardon for crimes committed, AND restoration of the (former) criminal to a lawful life.

BOTH of those are the act of God securing the voluntary cooperation of the individual. God issues the pardon, and imparts the power to live a holy, sanctified life unto God.

Now, in a truly 'saved by works' system, one would not even need a pardon. One would simply be acquitted in court of any wrongdoing, because one could point to their obedience to the laws as their defense. After all, if you are accused of crime, and you did not in fact break any laws, that is an affirmative defense.

But suppose you did indeed break the law, and are in fact a criminal. And receive a pardon. And from that moment on you never once break any single law whatsoever, but are a good upstanding citizen. The fact you are a free man is NOT 'because you obeyed the laws' nor are they because you do lots of charity work. It is because you were pardoned. And out of gratitude and thankfulness, you have been restored to being a law abiding and productive citizen.

The Bible teaches conditions for salvation, and they include the necessity of an Atonement (provided by Christ), and faith and repentance on the part of the one being saved. Repentance includes a return to full, present, obedience. A return to obedience is necessarily implied in the concept of repentance. Thus a person who does not return to obedience to God, has not repented, and does not truly have faith.

So then, what I have proposed is not a system of salvation by works, nor is it a system of 'keeping saved by works'. It is salvation by grace. The grace of God pardons the sinner, secures by the operation of the Spirit the sinner's faith and repentance, and maintains the believer's continued perseverance in holiness and righteousness and faith and steadfastness unto the end. Therefore, it is not salvation by works, which as the apostle Paul pointed out in a system of salvation by works the reward is reckoned as a matter of DEBT (you get what's coming to you, what is OWED to you). But true salvation is not a matter of debt. It is a matter of grace, the gift of God to people who in reality deserve to be locked up in jail and have the key thrown away.

[Esaias]

"3. Nor does justification by faith imply that a sinner is justified by faith, without good works, or personal holiness.

Some suppose that justification by faith only, is without any regard to good works, or holiness. They have understood this from what Paul has said, where he insists so largely on justification by faith. But it should be borne in mind that Paul was combating the error of the Jews, who expected to be justified by obeying the law. In opposition to this error, Paul insists on it that justification is by faith, without works of law. He does not mean that good works are unnecessary to justification, but that works of law are not good works, because they spring from legal considerations, from hope and fear, and not from faith that works by love. But inasmuch as a false theory had crept into the church on the other side, James took up the matter, and showed them that they had misunderstood Paul. And to show this, he takes the case of Abraham. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?--And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." This epistle was supposed (by some) to contradict Paul, and some of the ancient churches rejected it on that account. But they overlooked the fact that Paul was speaking of one kind of works, and James of another. Paul was speaking of works performed from legal motives. But he has every where insisted on good works springing from faith, or the righteousness of faith, as indispensable to salvation. All that he denies is, that works of law, or works grounded on legal motives, have any thing to do in the matter of justification. And James teaches the same thing, when he teaches that men are justified, not by works nor by faith alone, but by faith together with the works of faith; or as Paul expresses it, faith that works by love. You will bear in mind that I am speaking of gospel justification, which is very different from legal justification."

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/...t_by_faith.htm

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So then you believe that a non-works based system would mean a person is saved regardless of whether they sin or not? So then a person can be pardoned, and continue in rebellion, and be fine?

Yes that would be a non-works based system. You are saved regardless of what you do or don't do.

So in other words, suppose a criminal lives a life of crime, then receives a pardon, and his sentence is set aside, his record is wiped clean, he gets a new chance with a clean slate. And suppose that person never stops his life of crime, but just continues robbing banks, molesting kids, running his pimp operation, uses his cell phone while driving through school zones, sells government secrets to foreign governments, etc. And it would be good, right, and 'gracious' for the government to say 'hey, we pardoned him, he's good to go!'

that's my point. it is good for a man to be condemned by his works. Yet if he can be condemned by them then he can be saved by them.

In your example above what kept the man out of prison. Was it the pardon or was it hid good and law abiding works? It was both. Then man could not have been out of prison without either.

I submit that if that actually happened, you would object to the injustice and wrongfulness of such a government policy. Unless YOU were the unrepentant criminal in question, of course...

Of course, but isn't that my point? That we are saved by works and that if it were by pardon alone then it would be unjust?

Obedience to God is a CONDITION of salvation, absolutely. But that doesn't mean 'saved by works'. Salvation includes both the receiving of a pardon for crimes committed, AND restoration of the (former) criminal to a lawful life.

When salvation is conditional on works then it requires works (aka works based salvation).

BOTH of those are the act of God securing the voluntary cooperation of the individual. God issues the pardon, and imparts the power to live a holy, sanctified life unto God.

Totally agree. God is trying to ensure the individual does the good works and not the bad works.

Now, in a truly 'saved by works' system, one would not even need a pardon. One would simply be acquitted in court of any wrongdoing, because one could point to their obedience to the laws as their defense. After all, if you are accused of crime, and you did not in fact break any laws, that is an affirmative defense.

Any system that requires works is a works based system. I have not denied we needed a pardon. There is a system which requires pardon and works. We are both describing that system except you refuse to call a spade a spade.

But suppose you did indeed break the law, and are in fact a criminal. And receive a pardon. And from that moment on you never once break any single law whatsoever, but are a good upstanding citizen. The fact you are a free man is NOT 'because you obeyed the laws' nor are they because you do lots of charity work. It is because you were pardoned. And out of gratitude and thankfulness, you have been restored to being a law abiding and productive citizen.

Yes your freedom required a pardon. But that doesn't mean it did not require works as well. The simple proof is this. If you had broken the law after your pardon would you remain free? So then your freedom is contingent on two things, the pardon and your keeping the laws.

The Bible teaches conditions for salvation, and they include the necessity of an Atonement (provided by Christ), and faith and repentance on the part of the one being saved. Repentance includes a return to full, present, obedience. A return to obedience is necessarily implied in the concept of repentance. Thus a person who does not return to obedience to God, has not repented, and does not truly have faith.

So Pardon and Works? Your describing it. Can you actually call it by name?

So then, what I have proposed is not a system of salvation by works, nor is it a system of 'keeping saved by works'. It is salvation by grace. The grace of God pardons the sinner, secures by the operation of the Spirit the sinner's faith and repentance, and maintains the believer's continued perseverance in holiness and righteousness and faith and steadfastness unto the end. Therefore, it is not salvation by works, which as the apostle Paul pointed out in a system of salvation by works the reward is reckoned as a matter of DEBT (you get what's coming to you, what is OWED to you). But true salvation is not a matter of debt. It is a matter of grace, the gift of God to people who in reality deserve to be locked up in jail and have the key thrown away.

It is a system of pardon and works. Both are required. But any system that requires works is to be classified as a works based system. Affirming works does not deny grace. That is the great lie.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by jfrog

It is a system of pardon and works. Both are required. But any system that requires works is to be classified as a works based system. Affirming works does not deny grace. That is the great lie.

this is kind of what i meant, ya. It is keeping the focus on potential punishment instead of "you are to be like gods." The question that the doctrine attempts to answer is asked in innocence, but examining why the question was asked also points to why the doctrine is inadequate. Also, several Scriptures, many, indicate that it is too oversimplified.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Kind of like people who are trapped in their own reality with no connection to the outside, yet aren't aware of it.

we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, Esaias.

1Working together with Him, we also appeal to you, “Don’t receive God’s grace in vain.” 2For He says:

I heard you in an acceptable time,
and I helped you in the day of salvation.

Look, now is the acceptable time; now is the day of salvation.