Conundrum: Not saved by works. Condemned by them?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So then you believe that a non-works based system would mean a person is saved regardless of whether they sin or not? So then a person can be pardoned, and continue in rebellion, and be fine?

Yes that would be a non-works based system. You are saved regardless of what you do or don't do.

So in other words, suppose a criminal lives a life of crime, then receives a pardon, and his sentence is set aside, his record is wiped clean, he gets a new chance with a clean slate. And suppose that person never stops his life of crime, but just continues robbing banks, molesting kids, running his pimp operation, uses his cell phone while driving through school zones, sells government secrets to foreign governments, etc. And it would be good, right, and 'gracious' for the government to say 'hey, we pardoned him, he's good to go!'

that's my point. it is good for a man to be condemned by his works. Yet if he can be condemned by them then he can be saved by them.

In your example above what kept the man out of prison. Was it the pardon or was it hid good and law abiding works? It was both. Then man could not have been out of prison without either.

I submit that if that actually happened, you would object to the injustice and wrongfulness of such a government policy. Unless YOU were the unrepentant criminal in question, of course...

Of course, but isn't that my point? That we are saved by works and that if it were by pardon alone then it would be unjust?

Obedience to God is a CONDITION of salvation, absolutely. But that doesn't mean 'saved by works'. Salvation includes both the receiving of a pardon for crimes committed, AND restoration of the (former) criminal to a lawful life.

When salvation is conditional on works then it requires works (aka works based salvation).

BOTH of those are the act of God securing the voluntary cooperation of the individual. God issues the pardon, and imparts the power to live a holy, sanctified life unto God.

Totally agree. God is trying to ensure the individual does the good works and not the bad works.

Now, in a truly 'saved by works' system, one would not even need a pardon. One would simply be acquitted in court of any wrongdoing, because one could point to their obedience to the laws as their defense. After all, if you are accused of crime, and you did not in fact break any laws, that is an affirmative defense.

Any system that requires works is a works based system. I have not denied we needed a pardon. There is a system which requires pardon and works. We are both describing that system except you refuse to call a spade a spade.

But suppose you did indeed break the law, and are in fact a criminal. And receive a pardon. And from that moment on you never once break any single law whatsoever, but are a good upstanding citizen. The fact you are a free man is NOT 'because you obeyed the laws' nor are they because you do lots of charity work. It is because you were pardoned. And out of gratitude and thankfulness, you have been restored to being a law abiding and productive citizen.

Yes your freedom required a pardon. But that doesn't mean it did not require works as well. The simple proof is this. If you had broken the law after your pardon would you remain free? So then your freedom is contingent on two things, the pardon and your keeping the laws.

The Bible teaches conditions for salvation, and they include the necessity of an Atonement (provided by Christ), and faith and repentance on the part of the one being saved. Repentance includes a return to full, present, obedience. A return to obedience is necessarily implied in the concept of repentance. Thus a person who does not return to obedience to God, has not repented, and does not truly have faith.

So Pardon and Works? Your describing it. Can you actually call it by name?

So then, what I have proposed is not a system of salvation by works, nor is it a system of 'keeping saved by works'. It is salvation by grace. The grace of God pardons the sinner, secures by the operation of the Spirit the sinner's faith and repentance, and maintains the believer's continued perseverance in holiness and righteousness and faith and steadfastness unto the end. Therefore, it is not salvation by works, which as the apostle Paul pointed out in a system of salvation by works the reward is reckoned as a matter of DEBT (you get what's coming to you, what is OWED to you). But true salvation is not a matter of debt. It is a matter of grace, the gift of God to people who in reality deserve to be locked up in jail and have the key thrown away.

It is a system of pardon and works. Both are required. But any system that requires works is to be classified as a works based system. Affirming works does not deny grace. That is the great lie.