History of the Water and Spirit Doctrine

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

To my knowledge no groups that were large enough to be noticed by historians taught the true new birth message since the great falling away of the early Church.

Catholics teach being born of water and spirit. They say it means the same as we say it means except they practice baby baptism and Trinity baptism. They believe one is born of the Spirit at confirmation far as I know. Obviously no tongues or prophecy.

The Church of Christ teaches born of water and spirit. Born of water is baptism. But in their belief the Spirit birth also occurs WITH baptism. They discount any thought of God manifesting himself personally.

There are groups or Churches that do teach being born of water and Spirit but NOT the Oneness of God.

James Lee Beals Charismatic Church in Detroit taught born of water and Spirit both in Jesus name and with tongues. Yet they were Trins.

Thank you for the info on the Trinitarians who taught the same water and Spirit doctrine. I did not know that. Very interesting.

It appears, then, that there is no direct evidence of the existence of groups before the 20th century who taught conversion exactly like Oneness Pentecostals (and these other groups you mention) generally do now.

Regarding Catholics and Church of Christ, right, they believe that salvation occurs in a moment--at baptism. Forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit occur at that moment. Regarding confirmation, I think that it is the confirming or renewing of the presence of the Spirit that was first received at baptism.

So, before the 20th century, we have direct evidence of people teaching initial salvation occurring at a moment--the majority at baptism, others teaching at faith/repentance--but no direct evidence of it occurring in a process of baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit with the sign of tongues that could occur over a period of time.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Did you ever read William Chalfant Ancient Champions of Oneness or Oneness Pentecostalism: History of the Jesus Name Movement by Daniel Butler?

Thanks for mentioning these books. I believe I read Chalfant's book many many years ago. I have not read Butler's book. It's been so long since I read Chalfant's I don't recall if he just showed how others believed in the Oneness of God in the ancient church or if he also demonstrated how they also taught the same salvation plan as modern OP's do. I take it that he and Butler do provide this kind of evidence. If so, I greatly appreciate you bringing these books up.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Thanks for mentioning these books. I believe I read Chalfant's book many many years ago. I have not read Butler's book. It's been so long since I read Chalfant's I don't recall if he just showed how others believed in the Oneness of God in the ancient church or if he also demonstrated how they also taught the same salvation plan as modern OP's do. I take it that he and Butler do provide this kind of evidence. If so, I greatly appreciate you bringing these books up.

I too read Chalfants book in about 1982. I thought he did a pretty fair job showing Oneness through the years but I dont recall much about Acts 2:38 with tongues.