Are all Catholics lost?

[shazeep]

you managed to get in here and out before i had finished editing; i think there is more @ "core issues." But we need some fresh perspective, possibly, @ "agape," although you may further reveal your position there by replying to "core issues" if you like.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you managed to get in here and out before i had finished editing; i think there is more @ "core issues." But we need some fresh perspective, possibly, @ "agape," although you may further reveal your position there by replying to "core issues" if you like.

Agapé love is noble and lofty. Really noble! But in and of itself it does not save. You and I have sin, as does everyone else on earth. And no amount of our agapé love can remit that sin.

Now, when GOD has AGAPE love, and HE sacrifices for us, THAT saves! One has to be sinless to have one's love save others.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agapé love is noble and lofty. Really noble! But in and of itself it does not save. You and I have sin, as does everyone else on earth. And no amount of our agapé love can remit that sin.

Now, when GOD has AGAPE love, and HE sacrifices for us, THAT saves! One has to be sinless to have one's love save others.

I extend the golden rule to muslims, catholics and anyone else who truly does to others what they want done to them.

then you are doing it wrong wadr, because that is not what the verse says to do.

So, to get to the core issues, you must show form the Word why fulfilling law equals salvation. Sin is not remitted by fulflling law, and the sin issue is not resolved by love.

sure it is. Confession and rebound (repentance) are acts of love, not legal maneuvers to get you out of jail, free. When you sin, who do you confess to? Whom do you ask for forgiveness?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

then you are doing it wrong wadr, because that is not what the verse says to do.

[/quote]

I do not follow you. How is it wrong to say muslims and catholics can have agape love? Why does one not have agape love if they believe muslims and catholics can have agape love and still be unsaved?

Speaking of do unto others, I would never walk up to a muslim and say "You are lost." I would believe they are lost, but speak to them in ways to show them the cross and show how the bible teaches we must accept it or be lost. You make it sound like I greet a muslim and say YOU ARE LOST. I never even did that with WII boy.

sure it is. Confession and rebound (repentance) are acts of love, not legal maneuvers to get you out of jail, free. When you sin, who do you confess to? Whom do you ask for forgiveness?

Confession and repentance do not save us, though. If it's confession and repentance base upon awareness and being convinced of the cross as our remedy, then they LEAD to salvation, but do not save i and of themselves. For that matter, baptism does not save anyone either unless it is with faith that Christ's death was vital for it to make it efficacious.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agapé love is noble and lofty. Really noble! But in and of itself it does not save. You and I have sin, as does everyone else on earth. And no amount of our agapé love can remit that sin.

Now, when GOD has AGAPE love, and HE sacrifices for us, THAT saves! One has to be sinless to have one's love save others.

i am not suggesting that practicing agape...look, this is just too far from pick up your cross and follow Me for me to give a meaningful reply; perhaps someone else can reply in a manner more acceptable to you, ok?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i am not suggesting that practicing agape...look, this is just too far from pick up your cross and follow Me for me to give a meaningful reply; perhaps someone else can reply in a manner more acceptable to you, ok?

Your writing is always so obscure. it's hard to follow you. I've said that more than once.

But I will try to wade through your words to get your point.

I dealt with all these catch phrases you use and dealt with context in the word. You always disappeared at those instances and spoke as though I never said anything.

Here's one you used more than once: Picking up your cross and following Jesus. That DOES NOT SAVE US. That is the live we live AFTER we are saved by Jesus' cross. Our cross cannot save us. His cross alone does.

I cannot die on the cross and remit my own sins! I realize now that all your concepts of salvation, and agape love equaling God's work on the cross, women saving themselves by becoming pregnant and giving birth, are all means of salvation that never address SIN. the SIN question is seemingly absent from your concept of salvation. So, what are people saved FROM if not sin? What does salvation even mean to you? It's seemingly nothing to do with sin.

And again, you keep talking about no one knows they are saved, and yet it's a cop-out for you to read Paul's statements that distinctly say he referred to living people in his day as having been saved and then say that's there to catch up dishonest people. Come on, Shazeep. Admit you are wrong about the claim of salvation.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I extend the golden rule to muslims, catholics and anyone else who truly does to others what they want done to them.

^
i would argue that you quite evidently do not actually extend the Golden Rule near as far as you proclaim here, but one hairball at a time.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

^
i would argue that you quite evidently do not actually extend the Golden Rule near as far as you proclaim here, but one hairball at a time.

I said, Goodbye. You can only attack persons.

[shazeep]

My views reflect on me, not them. What has that got to do with excusing "them" for saying the same thing you do not excuse me for saying? I cannot see it as anything other than obvious bias.

um, what? i did not excuse them (i just forgive them). i plainly stated that this view would condemn them if they held it. However, a poll of Catholics asking if "All other Christians are lost" would likely reveal a roughly 50/50 split among them also, the point being that there is no doubt at least one Catholic who does not hold that view, hence all Catholics may not be lost. (not that that would be the standard, though)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

My views reflect on me, not them. What has that got to do with excusing "them" for saying the same thing you do not excuse me for saying? I cannot see it as anything other than obvious bias.

um, what? i did not excuse them (i just forgive them).

But you don't forgive a christian who claims everyone must be a christian?

i plainly stated that this view would condemn them if they held it.

Well a person who does not hold that view is not a catholic in my use of the term catholic.

However, a poll of Catholics asking if "All other Christians are lost" would likely reveal a roughly 50/50 split among them also, the point being that there is no doubt at least one Catholic who does not hold that view, hence all Catholics may not be lost. (not that that would be the standard, though)

So those who hold that view are lost or not?

My point is a person is not a catholic if they do not hold that view, for the catholic dogma states that view. Son in a sense we agree. Unless terms are used for the same purpose and in the same way, there is confusion and misrepresentation. So, basically you said the same thing I did, because you said a person who holds the dogma that non-catholics are lost is lost, where as I meant one who holds that dogma is a catholic. To me a catholic is not anyone except someone who holds those dogmas of catholicism.