History of Tithes in the Church

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Only because there are laws in the OT that command us not to worship idols, beginning in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments.

Otherwise, where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13).

Essentially, the reason you believe the Holy Spirit would convict you, and correctly so, I might add, is because the Holy Spirit forbad the worshipping of idols at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-6).

Makes one wonder what other laws the Holy Spirit might convict a person of, from out of the Ten Commandments?

Idolatry was a sin before Sinai. If you know the one and only true God, it would be lunacy to worship another. I never needed any written commandments to be convicted of idolatry.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Only because there are laws in the OT that command us not to worship idols, beginning in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments.

Otherwise, where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13).

Essentially, the reason you believe the Holy Spirit would convict you, and correctly so, I might add, is because the Holy Spirit forbad the worshipping of idols at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-6).

Makes one wonder what other laws the Holy Spirit might convict a person of, from out of the Ten Commandments?

Years ago I wrote a brief essay either here, on nFCF, or the original FCF, titled "Funny, I Don't FEEL Convicted". I can't find it here using the search. But long story short, most people think conviction is some kind of internal feeling, whereas the Bible shows that conviction has nothing at all to do with any feeling but is strictly by the Word. In other words, a person can be convicted completely independently of any of their own sense of wrong doing.

[good samaritan]

I asked where does the Bible teach "The NT contains commands to be obeyed as well as principles" etc

I think this is what you are intending to quote from me?

The NT gives both principles and direct commands. We are to follow the direct commands and learn from the principles.

I am confused with what you don’t understand? Did you read my examples of a biblical principle and a biblical command?

My view differentiates the law of Moses from the new covenant church commands. The law of Moses was specifically for Israel.

Exodus 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

The law was never given to me. The law is exclusively Jewish.

Colossians 2:16-17
16......Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17......Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbaths along with all the law of Moses is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6......Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7......But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

As far as pastoral salaries, there is no direct command of systematic giving (like was required in the law concerning tithe). There are a multitude of principles that can be applied as giving salaries to ministers. The thing about being Spirit led and having a principle, is that there is flexibility in how it can be applied. I am not demanding salaries for ministers, but using it to illustrate one method of applying a principle. Tithing today is not obligatory, but the principle of supporting ministry is. God will judge by the law written in our hearts. Therefore, we are not always able to call everyone right or wrong in. The wheat and rates will be sorted out by God at the resurrection.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think this is what you are intending to quote from me?



I am confused with what you don’t understand? Did you read my examples of a biblical principle and a biblical command?

My view differentiates the law of Moses from the new covenant church commands. The law of Moses was specifically for Israel.

Exodus 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

The law was never given to me. The law is exclusively Jewish.

Colossians 2:16-17
16......Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17......Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbaths along with all the law of Moses is fulfilled.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6......Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7......But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

As far as pastoral salaries, there is no direct command of systematic giving (like was required in the law concerning tithe). There are a multitude of principles that can be applied as giving salaries to ministers. The thing about being Spirit led and having a principle, is that there is flexibility in how it can be applied. I am not demanding salaries for ministers, but using it to illustrate one method of applying a principle. Tithing today is not obligatory, but the principle of supporting ministry is. God will judge by the law written in our hearts. Therefore, we are not always able to call everyone right or wrong in. The wheat and rates will be sorted out by God at the resurrection.

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Romans 2:12-16 KJV
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The gentiles which have not the law, the law of Moses was not given to gentiles. The law we will answer for is the one written in their hearts.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The gentiles which have not the law, the law of Moses was not given to gentiles. The law we will answer for is the one written in their hearts.

Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.

Thank you! I try my best

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your ability to not actually read stuff is astounding.

Also thank you for the sport that you are. We have really probably belabored the subject, but I enjoy going back in forth with you.

[good samaritan]

“In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

Those who proclaim the gospel should have available to them the very same things the Levites had available to them when they travelled to Jerusalem in order to complete their service in the temple:

- Free housing
- Change of garments
- Food to eat
- Funds for travelling

No more, no less.“

Which is the very thing people receive money for.
Housing
Clothing
Food
Transportation

Giving a monetary offering to your local church is in no way a violation to any scripture.

[coksiw]

Rom 2:14-16 NKJV - (14) for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, (15) who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them]) (16) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Their conscience will still tell them they are doing wrong, and won't be at peace. Their understanding can acknowledge they are doing wrong, or can justify itself as "a necessary evil" or can simply be deceived thinking that they are doing is actually good, or at least not evil. However, they are still guilty, because of their conscience, and their conscience will bear witness against them in the day of judgment, even if they didn't know the law of Moses.

Because of the corruption in the heart of man, namely their understanding and will, God always gave commandments and laws to those that drew near to Him, even before the Law of Moses. The Word of God brings clarity to the understanding that has been darkened because of Sin.


Enoch walked with God: Gen 5:24
Noah walked with God: Gen 6:9
Abraham was called to repent and walk with God: Gen 17:1

Now, all those passages were written by the same author: Moses. What did "walk" mean for him? Let's look at the places where the lifestyle of those that walked with God is explained beside worshiping and praying:

Gen 26:5 NKJV - (5) "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Well that verse implies that Abraham received commandments from God beside the call to leave his people, even though, the Bible does not tell you exactly what were those.

I'm telling that it is totally reasonable to think that all people that sought God before Moses, soon found out God wanted them to obey commandments, laws, regulations, and statues.

Psa 119:105 NKJV - (105) NUN. Your word [is] a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
Psa 119:130 NKJV - (130) The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.
Psa 19:8 NKJV - (8) The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes;

Adam had one commandment, and the rest was just part of his nature of not sinning. We all need detailed commandments because of our understanding's tendency to get corrupted. We got knowledge of good and evil, and a tendency to choose evil. That's why you need a lot more than just "love your neighbor as yourself" because quickly you will deceive yourself of what really means to love your neighbor as yourself.

Jer 17:9 NKJV - (9) "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it?