Once Saved Always Saved

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

my position is that they are misinterpreted, to serve an agenda--or by all means, post one, and we will explore it, i have no problem with that. I may have skipped over one without realizing it? Sorry--the last one i remember you posting was 2John10 or 11, and we know where that went.

Find love and you will find the cross. Love comes first, as far as "our part" goes, too; the Apostles only had love, and it was "sufficient for them." The legal understanding, the NT, came later. If you preach any other doctrine, you are "not welcome."

Love does not come first as our part. God's love toward us comes first.

1 John 4:18-21 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (19) We love him, because he first loved us. (20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Shazeep, your explanation that love was a commandment before the cross in order for us to know we must love first so we will come to the cross is not found int he bible. Where did you get this concept?

The New Testament teaches why the law said what it said

Look how Paul leads up to the purpose of the Law. We have to follow his context carefully.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Law is being contrasted from faith. Actually, works contrasted with faith.

Galatians 3:6-9 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Letting this teach us, and not reading anything in to it, we learn Abraham's faith alone caused God to declare he was righteous. Paul explained it follows that everyone since then who likewise believes God takes their faith and not their works (no matter how much they love others) to grant them a gift of righteousness, not having worked for it, are children of Abraham.

This naturally tends to the question about Law's purpose.

So Paul then contrasts BLESSING with CURSING, a common contrast in the overall bible. He just said we are BLESSED with Abraham, and now he speaks of cursing.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul just quoted a statement from Law to substantiate his claim. Law itself stated that you have to continue in Law, or in other words, successfully be able to obey it without failure, or else you are cursed.

Here's that verse:

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Then Paul quotes another verse from Law to show that Law itself witnessed that nobody can ever be justified by obeying anything the Law demands they obey.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Habakkuk 2:4 is now his reference, from under the age of Law. The reason we rad the just shall live by faith is meant to say those who are just are that way because of faith. Paul was a spiritual genius! He knew the Law so well that he was able to use it to show that it actually indicated no one can be justified by works when Law encouraged people to do so. You might ask, "Why would God have a Law that encourages people to commit works if God knew the Law could never successfully see man do them?"

Paul gets to that.

He said Law is not of faith, because law again, itself, noted that you have to DO what it says to LIVE. "Living in them" this context means living a successful life for God and being connected to Him.

Another quote!

Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

In other words, you shall be God's people if you keep His Laws. Paul points out this is impossible.

Paul said faith moves God to make you righteous and just. Obeying works of the Law to be righteous cannot happen, even though law encouraged that. And Law itself implied that in the verses Paul cited! Follow his reasoning?

So, overall, having established one is cursed under Law, he then informed them Jesus did something about that!

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Another Old Testament quote from LAW!

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Paul applied this to the cross of Jesus, and applied it spiritually. Moses meant the land is cursed and defiled if a hanged man is accursed and is not removed before sundown. But Paul applied that spiritually to say Jesus became cursed because he was hanged, as Law stated, and was made a curse FOR US. In other words, He took the penalty of being cursed that falls on everyone who is unable to successfully keep the Law of works. We were cursed for being unable to keep Law, so Jesus willingly made Himself a curse in our places to receive the penalty so we don't have to.

Why did Jesus become a curse for us?

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

It was so that we would be BLESSED instead of being CURSED. This brings the blessing of Abraham on us instead of being deemed cursed by Law. And becoming blessed people allows the PROMISE GIVEN TO ABRAHAM TO COME TO US now, too! The blessing was meant for Abraham and HIS DESCENDANTS. And we BECOME a child of Abraham when we believe for righteousness instead of working good deeds, including loving one another, to be righteous.

Galatians 3:15-17 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. (16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Paul said any given covenant cannot be disqualified and made void if it's confirmed. That's ANY covenant. God made a covenant to Abraham about receiving promises. That covenant cannot be made void by any additional covenant that might follow. LAW was a second covenant after Abraham received his. LAW cannot cancel out Abraham's covenant. The PROMISE is still in effect even though a covenant came later, called Law, that urged righteousness by WORKS.

Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Then Paul said the promise was in regards to an INHERITANCE Abraham's children would receive. And he said that inheritance promised to Abraham cannot come by Law. Law was a law of WORKS to become righteous. And a promise is not a PROMISE if we have to WORK FOR IT. If someone promises you something, your only obligation is to believe you will get it. You are not intended to start working to achieve it. It was promised to you. No works were mentioned! So Paul showed LAW was a totally different issue altogether than Abraham's covenant of Promise.

Bear with me.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In other words, why, then, did God ever institute Law? Why did it come AFTER Abraham's covenant as an additional covenant? It was because God had to inform something to man about SINS. And he had to do that UNTIL Jesus, the Seed, would arrive when the inheritance of receiving the promise would be fulfilled.

What message did it relate to people about sins?

Galatians 3:20-22 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. (21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Does this mean Law is contradictory to promise? Nope. We must understand what a Law is. It's demands to be good. Think of our nation's laws. Law cannot give life to people because righteousness would have been achieved by lawkeepers if that were the case. Obviously Paul implied nobody was ever made righteous under Law. But why did Law come?

Paul called Law SCRIPTURE in verse 22. Law or scripture came ... AND HERE IS THE REASON..... to convince everyone that not one single human being is not without sin. THAT IS IT!

Law's purpose was to convince man that EVERYONE IS A SINNER.

God sent Israel the Law. From God, Himself! And He said they would live and have a relationship with God if they successfully kept it. DOING. WORKS. That's what it demanded for righteousness. Paul just proved no one could keep it, though. So why would God know nobody could keep it and yet give it to Israel, anyway? Paul said it was to PROVE SOMETHING TO MAN. It was to show man that HE CANNOT WORK HIS WAY TO HEAVEN. He can't succeed even if it's spelled out to him in a law of what TO DO, as far as works are concerned.

Then, AFTER 1,500 years of this LESSON, boom! Christ comes with a covenant of FAITH that was given to Abraham!

After having shown EVERYONE is a sinner, including the people of Israel whom God handpicked to have a law that outlined what TO DO TO BE RIGHTEOUS, then man is absolutely hopeless on his own. When Jesus came with the message of FAITH that was given to Abraham before Law, everyone would realize they could not work for righteousness, so they would accept the offer to BELIEVE instead in order to be righteous.

Paul then went on to say Israel was locked up in a prison of sorts under Law, like a schoolmaster, until Jesus came.

But the point is PAUL TAUGHT LAW'S PURPOSE was not to love so we could be led to God like you espoused (no offence intended), but to show us we cannot do enough good works to earn righteousness -- including loving one another. We need the route of righteousness being a GIFT!

I have no agenda. I am just responding to your thoughts according to what chapters like this teaches us.

[mfblume]

One note. 1 John and 2 and 3rd John are written to people already saved. They were urged to love AFTER their salvation. The gospel to the sinner is not to love to earn heaven, but go the route of faith in the blood of the Cross to make them righteous. AFTER THAT we learn these other VITAL issues. No one said they're not vital, Shazeep. You just assume we think they're not. The issue at hand is WHAT INITIALLY SAVES US. So the blood of the cross is the focus right now.

Shazeep, are you trying to tell us that YOU DO NOT depend nor rely upon the shed blood of Jesus in Death to redeem you are be the cause of God making you righteous for heaven? Are you saying faith His death in our places does not move God to count us righteous, but that we have to FIRST love people to earn righteousess?

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing but our acts of love for others.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but our works of kindness.

Oh, precious is the show
That makes me white as snow.
No other path I know,
Nothing but my works of righteousness.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One note. 1 John and 2 and 3rd John are written to people already saved. They were urged to love AFTER their salvation. The gospel to the sinner is not to love to earn heaven, but go the route of faith in the blood of the Cross to make them righteous. AFTER THAT we learn these other VITAL issues. No one said they're not vital, Shazeep. You just assume we think they're not. The issue at hand is WHAT INITIALLY SAVES US. So the blood of the cross is the focus right now.

well, so now we start splitting hairs on what "saved" means, when is someone "saved," what exact moment, why is the GS accepted when he knew nothing of this dogma, etc. They lived in a completely different world, also; they livedin Church; we go a couple times a week. Not disagreeing with you tho.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, are you trying to tell us that YOU DO NOT depend nor rely upon the shed blood of Jesus in Death to redeem you are be the cause of God making you righteous for heaven? Are you saying faith His death in our places does not move God to count us righteous, but that we have to FIRST love people to earn righteousess?

not at all; i am saying that if you are saying that just saying all of this publicly and repeatedly = "faith," then that is not what i am saying

Originally Posted by mfblume

What can wash away my sins?
Nothing but our acts of love for others.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but our works of kindness.

Oh, precious is the show
That makes me white as snow.
No other path I know,
Nothing but my works of righteousness.

at least more accurate than the impression people get from the song!

Originally Posted by mfblume

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Amen! So get washing and renewing! It does not happen magically in your sleep! It hurts! A lot!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We have to follow his context carefully.

that is a warning sign to me; a child should be able to grasp it.

Whom does God love? Those who do.
What if one is a hypocrite, and only saying that they believe in Christ?
By their fruit you will know them.

Who has the seemingly unlimited number of darts (verses) to back up their claim?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

that is a warning sign to me; a child should be able to grasp it.

Follow the context is a warning???? Wow. lol You're the one who spoke about an agenda and misinterpreting verses to such an agenda. The only way to avoid that, which I am trying to ensure, is look at the context of a passage by reading the overall chapter. We pipe you mourn, we mourn you dance. Nothing suits you it seems.

Whom does God love? Those who do.

God loves those who love? God loves EVERYONE despite their lack of anything. God loves those who don't love, as well.

Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

What if one is a hypocrite, and only saying that they believe in Christ?

You mean saying it and not really believing?

By their fruit you will know them.

Who has the seemingly unlimited number of darts (verses) to back up their claim?

You keep missing the point that we do have to love BUT NOT BE GET SAVED. Loving to be saved is salvation by works. Have you gotten this yet?

I am understanding why you are not responding with "correct" explanations of the scripture I present. Something is a stumblingblock to someone.

[shazeep]

"Love does not come first as our part. God's love toward us comes first."
But we have no part in the latter. And the former must be learned; or re-learned, it seems--at least in most people.

"Shazeep, your explanation that love was a commandment before the cross in order for us to know we must love first so we will come to the cross is not found int he bible. Where did you get this concept?"
The verses i recently posted, and Christ's own Word indicates this. The greatest commandment is love, Love is 9/10ths of the law, etc. The cross is the proof of God's love; yet we lead others to the cross by fear?

"Paul explained it follows that everyone since then who likewise believes God takes their faith and not their works (no matter how much they love others) to grant them a gift of righteousness, not having worked for it, are children of Abraham."
Amen, but what is faith? Finding Acts 2:38 in fear of hell, and making some public declarations about believing Christ died for you? This turns the cross into a magic charm. All one need do then is "cling to the cross," and keep talking like those deemed "saved," to get to heaven? This is deception.

"He said Law is not of faith, because law again, itself, noted that you have to DO what it says to LIVE."
Neither is the above any kind of faith that i care about any longer. Faith without works is dead.

"But the point is PAUL TAUGHT LAW'S PURPOSE was not to love so we could be led to God like you espoused (no offence intended), but to show us we cannot do enough good works to earn righteousness -- including loving one another. We need the route of righteousness being a GIFT!"
i agree completely. The Cross is God's gift for our salvation. One cannot earn their way to heaven. One demonstrates their understanding of this faith, however, by their future works. And as i said, and many others can testify to--even you, surely--you will be tested to insure that you grasp the difference. We have a saying, "No good deed goes unpunished." You are going to be punished for your good deeds. (how at odds is this with the standard message? ) Are you going to then cease doing each good deed, as you learn the punishment for it? Or when you even discover that there is no reward for it? Then you were codependently attempting salvation by works, and you thought you had some deal with God, where you do good works for some reward. A phase we all go through, no doubt.

"I have no agenda. I am just responding to your thoughts according to what chapters like this teaches us."
A better way to put that might be that we are invited into a division, in the Acts 2:38-will-save-you model of salvation. "They are lost, while i am found." This is a great sin. It is strictly an ego appeal, for the overwhelming majority.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

But we have no part in the latter. And the former must be learned; or re-learned, it seems--at least in most people.

More vague talk. Please speak clearly.

The verses i recently posted, and Christ's own Word indicates this. The greatest commandment is love, Love is 9/10ths of the law, etc. The cross is the proof of God's love; yet we lead others to the cross by fear?

Who said lead them by fear? How is it fear to tell people they cannot do enough good to save themselves? How is it fear to inform people that the only way we can be saved, due to our lack of personal goodness, is for God to lovingly forgive us on account of the sacrifice of Christ? How do you get fear out of that?

Amen, but what is faith? Finding Acts 2:38 in fear of hell,

You must have had some hairy experiences with hellfire Acts 2:38 preachers, because i have said nothing about that, and only noted we have to realize our good works do not save us, and how acts 2:38 is a dead work without genuine faith in the work of god on the cross. And you always bring up this "other" element that you must have gotten from some harsh preachers, so much so that a person need only mention Acts 2:38 and you listen to nothing that person says. What happened to you, anyway?

and making some public declarations about believing Christ died for you? This turns the cross into a magic charm. All one need do then is "cling to the cross," and keep talking like those deemed "saved," to get to heaven? This is deception.

You show me where the my thoughts are in error in interpreting the verses I provided for you with my explanations. Don't just say I am wrong. Show me where and how, and what is the correct understanding in those passages.

Neither is the above any kind of faith that i care about any longer. Faith without works is dead.

Faith without works is dead. But works without faith is dead, too. You are saying you CARE NOT for the faith we require in GOD doing the work to save us and not OUR OWN WORK? Faith that saves WILL WORK. I never said it wouldn't. I have repeated myself over and again indicating YES we love. But you will simply not get my point that all of that love means nothing without faith in God doing the ONLY WORK THAT CAN SAVE US before the vital loving we must do is done.

i agree completely. The Cross is God's gift for our salvation. One cannot earn their way to heaven.

Then how can you turn around and say people whose holy books say NOTHING about the need for Christ's cross are saved because they love others? You SAY you agree with the bible, but you never take a verse and show us HOW your belief is indicated in it and how we are wrong when we say without the work of the bloodshed of Christ cross no amount of loving will save anyone.

One demonstrates their understanding of this faith, however, by their future works.

EXACTLY!! This is my point all along. BUT IT IS AFTERWARD. However you said that the Q'uran urges people to love, and has not iota of a peep about the need for Christ's death on the cross to move God to forgive us, and you said they are saved due to the love aspect. Explain.

And as i said, and many others can testify to--even you, surely--you will be tested to insure that you grasp the difference. We have a saying, "No good deed goes unpunished." You are going to be punished for your good deeds. (how at odds is this with the standard message? ) Are you going to then cease doing each good deed, as you learn the punishment for it? Or when you even discover that there is no reward for it? Then you were codependently attempting salvation by works, and you thought you had some deal with God, where you do good works for some reward. A phase we all go through, no doubt.

I do not do good to be rewarded. I do good because it suits the salvation God gave us.

A better way to put that might be that we are invited into a division, in the Acts 2:38-will-save-you model of salvation. "They are lost, while i am found." This is a great sin. It is strictly an ego appeal, for the overwhelming majority.

No. Acts 2:38 is only an application of the cross to our lives. Jesus' death on the cross occurred for us to get baptized into it to benefit from it. That death is vital. Without the death and our faith in it for us and our forgiveness acts 2:38 is null and void and useless. I believe many take Acts 2:38 without that vital dependency on the cross for its value. But that does not mean true Acts 2:38 is useless. Acts 2:38 is as important as saying the cross of Jesus had to occur with His death standing as our own, or we're lost forever. You have some twisted form of Acts 2:38 for some reason. And for some reason you are convinced I am misrepresenting Acts 2:38, for I am explaining how works of our own save no one and those who actually distort Acts 2:38 make it a salvation by works when in reality it is not.

Again, what happened to you?

[shazeep]

"Follow the context is a warning?"

if you take it in the spirit intended, yes. The Galatians verses are about us needing a Savior, which i am not denying. But it is a different subject.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Follow the context is a warning?"

if you take it in the spirit intended, yes. The Galatians verses are about us needing a Savior, which i am not denying. But it is a different subject.

The fact is the Galatians text dealt with the purpose of the Law since the Galatians were going law-crazy. And the purpose of the law is certainly the entire issue in out chats. It's in Romans, too.

But again, you're making these claims and simply not dealing with the verses. After this long, I get the impression you never will. Again, do you actually disbelieve some of what the bible claims as if it were error?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The fact is the Galatians text dealt with the purpose of the Law since the Galatians were going law-crazy. And the purpose of the law is certainly the entire issue in out chats. It's in Romans, too.

But again, you're making these claims and simply not dealing with the verses. After this long, I get the impression you never will. Again, do you actually disbelieve some of what the bible claims as if it were error?

I have been doing nothing but feeding you Scripture telling you that love comes first. Do you actually disbelieve most of what the Bible claims?