Once Saved Always Saved

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"I will ask it again! Moslems deny the cross. Are they lost?"
and i will say it again; you are attempting to force Muslims into your definition of "the cross," and insisting that the First Son become the Second for salvation.

"

No, it is the BIBLE's definition of the cross. You are taking all the good deeds Jesus instructs us to do and making them salvation, when Jesus meant that for those AFTER HIS CROSS saves us. Not our crosses.

Any Muslim practicing "love one another" as best they are able is following the cross, as the Qur'an instructs them to do.

You cannot , and every Muslim cannot, carry your and THEIR cross until YOU/THEY FIRST accept righteousness by faith from the work of Christ's death as us on HIS cross.

This is serious false doctrine. No evangelical, let alone OP's, agrees with your words here.

Carrying the cross in self denial DOES NOT SAVE US. THAT COMES AFTER we are saved by the cross of Jesus. We need HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS to save us, THEN we carry our crosses and follow Him in self denial BECAUSE we are saved. NOT TO GET SAVED.

You can pile all your nasty Christians on top of each other for a thousand miles high, and still have NO JUSTIFICATION to say that the cross of Jesus to save is IS NOT NECESSARY BEFORE we are to carry our crosses and follow Him.

You have blatantly espoused salvation BY WORKS when you say carrying our crosses in self denial will save Muslims or anyone else. Self denial does not save us. If that were the case, the saffron robed Tibetan monks would be saved. (You likely think they are, I guess).

Self denial is an act of the will and is a good deed and a work, and IT CANNOT SAVE.

You are espousing that righteousness comes from WORKING GOOD DEEDS, when the Bible teaches righteousness is a free gift that comes from Christ's work on the cross not OUR WORK in carrying our crosses.

The words you stated above are plain and simple SALVATION BY WORKS.

You are saying God sees how GOOD we can be in self denial, and without anything about Christ's death itself, you are saying OUR SELF DENIAL is salvational. That is the ripest form of salvation by works I have ever personally witnessed an alleged Christian ever espouse in my life.

I will show how the BIBLE teaches righteousness is NOT EARNED by OUR self denial, but by Christ's death.

Romans 3:21-28 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

THE LAW said to love our neighbours as ourselves.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

THAT IS LAW. A deed of the Law. And by deeds of the Law shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.

Christ's work on the cross in HIS DEATH justifies us, not our self denial with our crosses. YES, we must carry our crosses, BUT NOT TO GET SAVED.

You are saying all that Paul said above is wrong, whether you realize it or not. Muslims have no faith in Jesus, and Paul said FAITH IN JESUS is what justifies us. NOT any carrying of OUR crosses. OUR CROSS comes after HIS CROSS SAVES US.

You're so caught up in nasty Christians that you effectively canned the entire concept of salvation by grace THROUGH FAITH in Christ's cross that "gifts" us His righteousness.

Again, no amount of nasty Christians removes the fact that faith in Christ's shed blood for our sins ALONE justifies and makes us righteous.

You can throw all the red herrings in to the fray you like, but we are NOT SAVED BY CARRYING OUR CROSSES.

And there is a multitude of Christians who genuinely carry their crosses and deny themselves and love God and their neighbours as themselves.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, as we have been discussing, one's beliefs do not save them. Yes, they hold their mouth differently @ "Son of God," so what. We have Christian priests who believe all of those things, but have no problem judging others out loud. God does not judge what one says they believe, and nowhere in Scripture can that be quoted, except that hypocrites say one thing and do another. You condemn Muslims, and fail to mention that every other Christian who does not believe like you do is condemned, also, if you adhere to OP doctrine. Those are also the facts.

Don't kid yourself that those crying "Lord, Lord" from one side of their mouths and "They are all lost" from the other will fool God. "Facts" always seem to end up being "the 'facts' that help me make my point," and every splinter-group has their own set, OPs included. "Love one another" has no sect, and needs no religion, nor any twisting of Scripture to make its point.

You sir have no clue about what the new testament teaches. That's why you can't answer the scriptures I posted. . No evangelical of any stripe sees the cross differently than I noted. You simply don't know what the new testament teaches about salvation. Nada. . Zip. Without the death of Jesus as our righteousness and sole means of salvation apart from and good deed we can do, love one another saves no one.

Love one another is vital as vital can be. But it does not save a soul.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Muslims don't believe that Jesus died for them. They also believe it is blasphemy to call Him the Son of God.

They are not Christian. Those are the facts.

Shaz does not understand how Christ's death saves us. He's a casual new testament reader who never really got it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

doing what the Good Samaritan did will save one because it is done from a pure heart, not from hope of redemption by it. But really, it is best if i just agree with you, from your pov, and say that yes, it is salvation by works, without which you are lost. Your fruit will bear this out, one way or another.

You really are out of your league with this issue. You're completely steeped in salvation by works and don't see righteousness is a gift only to those who see Christ's death as their own to be saved.

Read the new testament with a desire to learn.

[shazeep]

"No, it is the BIBLE's definition of the cross. You are taking all the good deeds Jesus instructs us to do and making them salvation, when Jesus meant that for those AFTER HIS CROSS saves us. Not our crosses."
7Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

"You cannot , and every Muslim cannot, carry your and THEIR cross until YOU/THEY FIRST accept righteousness by faith from the work of Christ's death as us on HIS cross. This is serious false doctrine. No evangelical, let alone OP's, agrees with your words here."
then both can go to the devil. Love comes before the cross, and not the cross before love. 16This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us.
9God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent His One and Only Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

"we are NOT SAVED BY CARRYING OUR CROSSES."
11For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another,
18Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You really are out of your league with this issue. You're completely steeped in salvation by works and don't see righteousness is a gift only to those who see Christ's death as their own to be saved.

Read the new testament with a desire to learn.

well, we are going through the entire NT here, day by day, so i guess we'll see
if you get any nastier though, i will quit.
5Now this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light
3This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands.
4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:
6The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.
7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old command that you have had from the beginning. The old command is the message you have heard.
11But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and doesn't know where he's going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
24What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.(Love first)
27The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don't need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things and is true and is not a lie; just as He has taught you, remain in Him.
(when you find the truth, Love, no lawyer can revert you back to legal knowledge)
29If you know that He is righteous, you know this as well: Everyone who does what is right has been born of Him.
yikes i guess you guys pretty much have to skip 1John entirely, huh?
1Look at how great a love the Father has given us

3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself

[shazeep]

wow, the whole Book is a primer on Love and works. And we already did 2John, and it's not much different.

Another reflection is that the religious way is vague and impenetrable, as you have noted, and requires that one cannot achieve righteousness by works, but can lose it that way.
Love becomes subordinated to knowledge; one is required to hold their mouths correctly in order to "understand," yet little children already get it. Get it?

Anyone who tells you that "Love one another" is not the doctrine is lying to you, and if i have not provided that exact quote today, i can. Of course Established Religion has a different message--We Are the Priests--because they are a kingdom of man, a Corporation, and thus controlled by satan. Whenever you find yourself running with the herd, it is time to pause and reflect.

There is no law but Love.

[shazeep]

For what it's worth, i wouldn't advise anyone follow me anywhere--i am still figuring this out myself, and I'm no shining example of Love one another. I mostly give it lip service myself. Find Love One Another--the hard thing--and you will find the cross. Christ will become much more real to you, not less so. Will things get easier? no, they will get harder, in a very real day-to-day sense; but you will also find peace.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

For what it's worth, i wouldn't advise anyone follow me anywhere--i am still figuring this out myself, and I'm no shining example of Love one another. I mostly give it lip service myself. Find Love One Another--the hard thing--and you will find the cross. Christ will become much more real to you, not less so. Will things get easier? no, they will get harder, in a very real day-to-day sense; but you will also find peace.

You're still not dealing with the verses that show loving dies not come before the cross as far as our part goes.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're still not dealing with the verses that show loving dies not come before the cross as far as our part goes.

my position is that they are misinterpreted, to serve an agenda--or by all means, post one, and we will explore it, i have no problem with that. I may have skipped over one without realizing it? Sorry--the last one i remember you posting was 2John10 or 11, and we know where that went.

Find love and you will find the cross. Love comes first, as far as "our part" goes, too; the Apostles only had love, and it was "sufficient for them." The legal understanding, the NT, came later. If you preach any other doctrine, you are "not welcome."