Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Jason B]

BUMP

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

what evidence did Paul quote to the Roman believers that they had the Holy Ghost?

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed ; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

STRANGELY TONGUES IS NEVER MENTIONED AS EITHER A FRUIT, OR OF EVIDENCE THAT WE KNOW GOD AND ARE HIS DISCIPLES.

Furthermore, lets just throw out all that stuff about Abraham being justified by faith in chapter 4. While we're at it, we can cut out chapter 3:21-28, chapter 1:17, All of Romans 5, parts of 6 & 7, of course do away with that pesky Romans 10. In the end we will have the equivalent of the Thomas Jefferson [pentecostal] version of Romans. Just cut out what doesn't agree with your doctrine. Its simple.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bro. Gary, can you please prove that Jesus was speaking of water baptism in John 3:5?



True belief will be evidenced by actions.

That is indeed the gospel

ummm, where do you get that last step? You may want to tell the Apsotle Paul, because He seems to have had an oversight:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ?
2 God forbid . How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein ?
3 Know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


No one is arguing that true repentance includes/requires action on the part of the repentant, but this thread is about tongues and salvation, a theory not backed up with scripture.

Reguarding the last step:

Your reply included: "like as Christ was raised up from the dead"

How was Christ raised from the dead ?
....by the Spirit

Likewise we are raised from being Spiritually dead by being filled with His Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We will obviously just have to "agree to disagree" on the last point, while tongues in and of itself has no saving power, we do believe it is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost which is very necessary.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Reguarding the last step:

Your reply included: "like as Christ was raised up from the dead"

How was Christ raised from the dead ?
....by the Spirit

Likewise we are raised from being Spiritually dead by being filled with His Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We will obviously just have to "agree to disagree" on the last point, while tongues in and of itself has no saving power, we do believe it is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost which is very necessary.

Who is arguing that anyone is saved WITHOUT the Spirit of Christ? No one.

However, those scriptures say absolutely nothing for the initial evidence doctrine, but merely point out the obvious fact, that if the Spirit of God has not entered into the unregenerate sinner, they have not been born again.

They are not in any way related to speaking in tongues.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Who is arguing that anyone is saved WITHOUT the Spirit of Christ? No one.

However, those scriptures say absolutely nothing for the initial evidence doctrine, but merely point out the obvious fact, that if the Spirit of God has not entered into the unregenerate sinner, they have not been born again.

They are not in any way related to speaking in tongues.

I was simply answering other points that were brought up, but as far as tongues being the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost we have shown scriptural reasons for it, you chose to not agree, that is your right, so we just have to "agree to disagree" on that point :-)

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by BroGary

I was simply answering other points that were brought up, but as far as tongues being the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost we have shown scriptural reasons for it, you chose to not agree, that is your right, so we just have to "agree to disagree" on that point :-)

Bro. Gary, if you say that you have already shown scriptural reasons for tongues being the intial evidence, I will not argue, but I will simply repeat my earlier request, because I can't recalling reading sound biblical exegesis for tongues on this thread:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Have you clearly shown from scripture? Proven with sound biblical exegesis and contextual support? If so, please provide the post numbers so that I may study those scriptures and cross refences to see if there is indeed something I have overlooked.

If you have already posted scriptural proof of the initial evidence doctrine, please alert my attention to the post number, so that I may consider the arguments thereof, and post a rebuttal if necessary.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Bro. Gary, if you say that you have already shown scriptural reasons for tongues being the intial evidence, I will not argue, but I will simply repeat my earlier request, because I can't recalling reading sound biblical exegesis for tongues on this thread:

No offense intended, but it was simply not considered "sound" in your opinion, you are entitled to your opinion, and we obviously disagree on that subject :-)

[jfrog]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is required for salvation then every single person that has believed and been baptized must receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues or else Jesus was wrong about how he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (for there would be some that believed and were baptized but not saved). Therefore, all I need to find is one example of a person that believes and was baptized but never received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues to disprove that receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is required for salvation.

It's amazing how Mark 16:16 (one of the most cited 3 stepper scriptures in support of water baptism being salvational) actually disproves the 3rd step of the 3step doctrine (receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues being required for salvation).

[Sister Alvear]

Tongues is NOT the Holy Ghost only a sign of it....well...that is how I feel...of course if Christ is in us we will act Christ-like....wow...that says a lot....

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Tongues is NOT the Holy Ghost only a sign of it....well...that is how I feel...of course if Christ is in us we will act Christ-like....wow...that says a lot....

Amen, Sis. Alvear,

The first sign of life in a new born, natural or spiritual, is a SOUND! It may
be a long time before that "tree" bears fruit! It will need to be watered, nur-
tured, pruned, etc. before it becomes a "fruitful tree". A new born-again babe
in Christ, SHOULD desire the sincere milk of the Word, that it may grow thereby.
A newborn natural babe, should desire mother's milk. Today the makers of
formula make a substitute for mother's milk. Nothing replaces the way GOD
made for babies, naturally or spiritually, to be nourished.

Some babies may have been fed "junk" food and drink all their lives. I've
seen young mothers put soft drinks, etc. in their infants bottles. Those
babies will desire "junk" food and drink, unless someone introduces them to
something more nourishing. I hear children say, "I don't like milk". WHY do they
not like millk! We eleven siblings were "fed the sincere milk of the Word" from
a child. Most, if not all of us, LIKE MILK! But we like MEAT TOO, since we are
now all adults.

1Cor.13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought
as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Jesus told his disciples, "The words I speak unto you, they are spirit and
they are life." Yet, there were those who got so angry at his words, they
wanted to kill him!

Hugs,
Falla39

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is required for salvation then every single person that has believed and been baptized must receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues or else Jesus was wrong about how he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (for there would be some that believed and were baptized but not saved). Therefore, all I need to find is one example of a person that believes and was baptized but never received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues to disprove that receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is required for salvation.

It's amazing how Mark 16:16 (one of the most cited 3 stepper scriptures in support of water baptism being salvational) actually disproves the 3rd step of the 3step doctrine (receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues being required for salvation).

Your arguement is simply not valid, Mark 16:16 does not specify repentence either, but surely you agree repentence is a must, so just because every verse that relates to salvation does not focus on every aspect of what is required does not mean it is not a must.