"and he that doesn't believe will be damned." Notice the lack of reiteration of baptism. An exegesis of some of the best has shown how baptism was seen as a simultaneous picture of one coming to faith, not necessarily a secondary item "to be saved."
Then it seems to me that those who have come to that conclusion are mistaken. Why on earth would you then have to say those who don't believe shouldn't be baptized or wouldn't be baptized.
Quote:
We don't OBEY the Gospel. We respond to the Gospel by believing. To say the Gospel is obeyed, you'd have to see the Gospel as a command. Where do you get that from? The Gospel is good news. It's His amazing story!
It seems those who don't "obey" are in for some trouble:
Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Quote:
Regarding John 3:5 - the gravest error of 3-steppers is to proof-text the verse through Acts 2:38, instead of letting the context of John interpret John. Read the full Chapter and then tell me what you get from this "rebirth." I will tell you, when I saw grace for the first time, I could only describe it as being "born again." It fit so perfectly. It was an action of the Spirit in a regenerated heart to see and proclaim the Messiah.
How many more times do I need to read certain chapters of the Bible before I can understand? I've been reading the bible since 1970 and though I'm no bible scholar by any stretch I do have a certain amount of reading comprehension and God given ability to understand.
I saw grace the first day someone told me a Jew could come to Jesus just as I was.
Nothing I've read here or anywhere else can convince me that we don't need to repent, be baptized in His Name FOR the remission of sins and go on to recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost and that it ALL starts and ends with faith.
I've lived it, I live it still thanks be to God my Saviour!
God bless.
What is a Christian, really? This is what this thread is all about. And so many other threads here.
What is a Christ follower? What is a disciple of Jesus?
Jesus said there are 3 ways we would know his disciples:
1) They "abide in His word" (John 8:31)
2) They "bear much fruit" (John 15)
3) The way they love one another (John 13)
That's a recipe for true, authentic discipleship.
More importantly for those who don't consider themselves a Christian is this: Do you believe what you've heard about Jesus? Do you believe he is the Son of God? Do you believe He is the gift of God to the world, sent by God to redeem all of humanity? Do you believe apart from him we are incomplete and separated?
If you don't, keep inquiring, asking questions and coming around. If you do, keep inquiring, following and asking questions See a pattern?
Wow... that's just amazing. People will use Scripture however they want, pulling from it ammo to support a pre-existing belief or idea. The eisegesis is just unbelievable.
Amazingly, entire movements and salvation plans defined by tongues, and there is no explicit teaching on the matter. But we get our fancy eisegesis decoders out and play connect-the-dots to concoct all sorts of foolishness -- anything but the plain teachings of Jesus.
Then it seems to me that those who have come to that conclusion are mistaken. Why on earth would you then have to say those who don't believe shouldn't be baptized or wouldn't be baptized.
It seems those who don't "obey" are in for some trouble:
Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
How many more times do I need to read certain chapters of the Bible before I can understand? I've been reading the bible since 1970 and though I'm no bible scholar by any stretch I do have a certain amount of reading comprehension and God given ability to understand.
I saw grace the first day someone told me a Jew could come to Jesus just as I was.
Nothing I've read here or anywhere else can convince me that we don't need to repent, be baptized in His Name FOR the remission of sins and go on to recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost and that it ALL starts and ends with faith.
I've lived it, I live it still thanks be to God my Saviour!
God bless.
Sandie, Jeffrey hasn't responded yet, but I will take a stab here.
I don't believe Jeffrey is saying baptism is denied at all, or that someone who believes would not be baptized. In fact, he's saying just the opposite. Baptism was a simultaneous event with publicly professing belief! So when we see "believing and baptized" it's one big, beautiful picture. This is not to say that one does not believe until they are baptized, but rather the association of events is what made the compound phrase one word -- the primary subject must be recognized as "believing," and that is reiterated in the "he that doesn't believe" will be lost.
Who has advocated that people should not repent or be baptized? I believe the context of the one-stepper remarks has been God's work in salvation, and understanding Grace.
Sandie, what does "repentance" mean? What relationship does repentance have with believing? Is repentance a commitment to quit sinning? What is the most broad meaning of repentance? Is sin the focus or is Jesus?
Paul then finds "believers" but they werent exactly belivers because all they knew was what John taught.
So what does he do? Ask them to accept Jesus as their lord and savior? Tell them to repent and be happy?
noooooo
he asks them if they have the HG and how were they baptized....
I know it shouldnt bother me. Really I get it. we dont agree. we wont ever agree.
That was an interesting spin on the account in Acts 19, Ferd
Paul finds "believers" who, indeed, only knew what John the Baptist taught, that is, "have faith in the one coming after me." John's message was about having a radical life-changing, turning your hearts toward God and not living for yourself. So Paul tells them they should be baptized in the name of the one "who came after John" -- Jesus, the real baptism they had been believing for.
Interesting enough, nowhere in this account is any mention of this being a salvific encounter. Of these going from unsaved to saved. From the issue of the Spirit being one of regeneration. It's simply not there. These disciples ended up hanging around with Paul in Tyrannus, doing ministry there. This makes much more sense about the issue of the baptism of the Spirit that they received.
We must identify the uniqueness of the situation as well. John the Baptism preparing people's hearts for the one that is coming after Him. He's announcing Jesus. They believe John to be a prophet, believe the Messiah is coming.
John's teaching is where many of my brothers today base their teaching: repentance FROM sin, leaving the issue of Jesus intouched. Sure, they skip ahead into the Spirit baptism, but they forget the entirety of this passage is about revealing Jesus! They went from being disciples of John to disciples of Jesus.
And let's remember... Acts is a chronicle of fast-action narratives telling us what happened. Why do you think that is important to remember?
its real simple.... the only lost people are those who believe all of Acts 2:38 is necessary.
everybody else (including budda) are saved as 2 married people kissing.
Why do you go to a narrative book to find the answer on how to be saved? And why do you skip the Jailer's account? Why do you pass over Romans? Why are you complicating an issue that has everything to do with Jesus? Who says the second chapter and 38th verse in the story of Acts is where the centrality of the Gospel lies? Where do you get this from??
Sandie, Jeffrey hasn't responded yet, but I will take a stab here.
I don't believe Jeffrey is saying baptism is denied at all, or that someone who believes would not be baptized. In fact, he's saying just the opposite. Baptism was a simultaneous event with publicly professing belief! So when we see "believing and baptized" it's one big, beautiful picture. This is not to say that one does not believe until they are baptized, but rather the association of events is what made the compound phrase one word -- the primary subject must be recognized as "believing," and that is reiterated in the "he that doesn't believe" will be lost.
Who has advocated that people should not repent or be baptized? I believe the context of the one-stepper remarks has been God's work in salvation, and understanding Grace.
Sandie, what does "repentance" mean? What relationship does repentance have with believing? Is repentance a commitment to quit sinning? What is the most broad meaning of repentance? Is sin the focus or is Jesus?
"It all starts and ends with faith." Amen.
Hi Socialite,
I'm not going to hang out in this thread much longer.
I believe as you do and as many do here, that without faith and the grace of God we'd all be lost and headed for a hells grave.
I'm getting a little tired of the questions, if you don't know what repentance is then perhaps you should look it up instead of asking me.
Nothing, I repeat nothing that has been said in this thread or anywhere else I've read on this forum tells me that Acts 2:38 isn't necessary to obey. Nothing.
Either God meant what He said thru Peter or He was just kidding around (I shudder to even make such a statement).
Why that is such a stumbling block to so many I don't really understand, it's there for all to read and accept or reject.
Jesus said the way was narrow and "FEW" would be that find it. Accept God's plan of salvation or reject it, that choice is up to the individual.
No wonder Jesus said unless we believe like a child we would not be a part of His Kingdom.
All this gyration to get around a simple, yet profound truth is truly mind boggling. But, I leave such things to God.
I will continue to express the Gospel to as many as will listen and give them the instructions God has laid out on how to obey this marvelous Good News.
God bless.
See a pattern?
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