Are all Catholics lost?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

To say at least one catholic might not be lost after having said a poll would reveal that some catholics do not believe "all non-catholics are lost," is to imply you think those who believe "all catholics are lost" are lost themselves.

So, you just backpeddled badly right here.

well, you left out the part of the quote that admits that that would not be the standard God might use to condemn them, Mike.

Maybe, but not purposely. But it makes your former point moot, though, right?

And it does show you gave much more excuse for catholics who say what you condemned others for saying without any of that same effort.

Have a good day.

[shazeep]

no, it does not moot the former point, and i do not excuse any Catholics any more than those in my belief system, the difference being that i am judging someone of my faith, and not making statements about people not of my faith, which is also why i am not contradicting myself in post #223, as even if i have stated that, well, what the Bible says, that you think you can judge, but you cannot, and suggested that if you judge you will be judged, this does not mean i am qualified to deem anyone lost or saved in the final judgement, as i have maintained from the outset. I can't quite tell if you were maybe making a joke there or not? Sorry if i didn't get it.

[shazeep]

paste from another thread

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Elder Blume,
thank you for your continued contributions to this forum. I always enjoy reading your insights. I would, however, humbly entreat you to consider your backs and forths with shazeep. you have far too much to offer: to your church, your family, and this forum, to be found so encumbered with this guy.

I testify that he has not the spirit of Christ, and is none of his. his fundamental stumbling at the cross of Jesus Christ, not to mention his ignorance of the whole counsel of God, sets him in a lonely chamber covered by the heavy veil of agape righteous blindness. You will not change him, regardless of how skillfully you present a truth to him. I think perhaps only my Lord can remove this blindness.

I'm not sure if I'm just seeing a stubborn refusal, on every fish he throws out there, to not devour it wholly, or if I'm seeing a zeal that's lost it's rudder. I think there are many on this forum who share the truths you champion. I myself share most of them. But at what point, my elder, does the great gulf between your time, effort, and frustration, and his willful blindness, become great enough to reconsider the investments of the gifts my Lord has given you? This man offers you not the respect due your office and calling. he is as the town drunkard fallen in the mud, and hollering at the mayor as he passes by.

While I enjoy some of the scriptures that come out in your tussles, believe it or not the frustration also follows for us who share this like precious faith. So, just wondering if its time and energy well spent. In your own words, "my thoughts anyway".

[shazeep]

you have not proven that fulfilling the law=salvation.

ya, i'm not sure that's true, but it sure resonates. It is the same language Scripture uses for Christ, Who is Spirit. I guess i could try to equate them better, maybe,

8Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself,h, i you are doing well.

2Carry one another’s burdens; in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ

gee that was tough; there's some others at the link below.

(9But if you show favoritism, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.)(ahem)

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=fulfill+the+law

[shazeep]

i'm breaking these up so they'll be easier to reply to.

When i sum up your position, i doubt you are going to want
"read some Paul and wa-la" to stand as your reply for
"pray tell, how might one do the cross better then."

would you like to rephrase this?

[mfblume]

I'm going to say this, shazeep. If you find my statement saying catholics are lost to be offensive, I'll never utter it again to anyone.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you have not proven that fulfilling the law=salvation.

ya, i'm not sure that's true, but it sure resonates. It is the same language Scripture uses for Christ, Who is Spirit. I guess i could try to equate them better, maybe,

8Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself,h, i you are doing well.

2Carry one another’s burdens; in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ

gee that was tough; there's some others at the link below.

(9But if you show favoritism, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.)(ahem)

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=fulfill+the+law

Where do any of those verses say law saves? Doing well means salvation? A sinner can do well to walk an elderly lady across the street, but that' doesn't save him.

If salvation come by the law, Christ died in vain.

Galatians 2:21 KJV I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[shazeep]

I cannot die on the cross and remit my own sins! I realize now that all your concepts of salvation, and agape love equaling God's work on the cross, women saving themselves by becoming pregnant and giving birth, are all means of salvation that never address SIN. the SIN question is seemingly absent from your concept of salvation. So, what are people saved FROM if not sin? What does salvation even mean to you? It's seemingly nothing to do with sin.

great question, and apparently seconded, so i'll try again here. You ask God for forgiveness when you sin, yet God has already forgiven you, and asking forgiveness of the person wronged is kind of secondary, in your model. Sticking with my theme here, i would suggest that loving your neighbor and/or agape involve confession and rebound, a fancy way to say that when you make a mistake and hurt someone, you man up and express remorse, naming your mistake and willingness to forego do it in the future.

Sounds easy, but in practice is functionally impossible for many people; and i'm seeing a reflection of your "no one can do agape love" here, and other denials of what the Cross means imo, Be perfect, as I am perfect, Pick up your cross and follow Me, as well as relegating works to volunteering in the church nursery on Sunday or whatever, read some Paul and wa-la. A good deed(that's a work, i think anyway)covers many sins, regardless of which of the 2(?) ways you choose to take that, which i think both have Scriptural support.

(i still don't like my answer here, after putting it to my former, legal self, so fixated upon sin, and i doubt this answer will serve you, for the simple reason that we are so close together, and not that we are so far apart, strangely).

but if you will, punch some holes in this and we'll circle around it some more, or BAM present a better model.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I'm going to say this, shazeep. If you find my statement saying catholics are lost to be offensive, I'll never utter it again to anyone.

ty, but this is inadequate on at least two fronts and demonstrates that i still have not made my point, i guess. I know that you are a good hearted person, and do not mean to offend, if i was not sure before. But All Catholics are lost is only a symptom, not the disease.

That anyone without correct doctrine--which just happens to be the one you have found, in all the earth--is lost anda goin' ta hail is just a matter of course to you. That is the offensive part. The plantation owner comes back to mind here, and having a convo about emancipation with him--or trying, as how far would that one get?

So it is irrelevant that you never say it again, if you still believe it in your heart, and i am irrelevant to the equation period, what about Catholics, or yikes, all of the sheep that have absorbed this doctrine from you?

Just so we are clear here, for all i know all Catholics are lost. Do you understand the difference in my statement and yours?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Where do any of those verses say law saves? Doing well means salvation? A sinner can do well to walk an elderly lady across the street, but that' doesn't save him.

If salvation come by the law, Christ died in vain.

Galatians 2:21 KJV I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

yes, i am not suggesting that works save you, i confess that i have broken the law and deserve death, but i am forgiven--even though i did nothing to deserve forgiveness, and none of my future actions will ever, ever, ever make me deserving of forgiveness--because Christ came and fulfilled the law, and died for us even though He did not deserve any punishment. And works are essentially the only thing that matters, nonetheless. Weird, huh.

I have faith in this--the part before "works" up there--but practically speaking, what does it mean? It was a religion for me for...a long time. I avoided lots of Scripture myself. I denied what my own eyes read for years. Christ is either manifest in your next human transaction or He is not. If you are (like most people) going to church to please God, you are wasting your time. Your definitions of "service" and "worship" are...not mine, most likely, and they for sure aren't mine if you have sons doing "service" in the armed forces, and you worship the $ even if you are blind to the fact.

i don't mean for these to apply to you specifically, of course, but i see that wee are about to be in agreement again so i needed to get that in there