Saved Without A Pastor?? - Page 25

Evang.Benincasa · #**241** 06-21-2018, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I must have missed something is this a debate on if the angel was a person or angelic being? Or is the question did every church have only one person as the leader? What am I missing here?

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The angel was a minister like John, who had the testimony of being saved just like John.

Amanah · #**242** 06-21-2018, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

According to Paul, elders were to be ordained in every city by Titus.

How many in each city

Evang.Benincasa · #**243** 06-21-2018, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

How many in each city

Just had a thought, as many as there were diaspora synagogues which converted to the Apostolic faith.

Apostolic1ness · #**244** 06-21-2018, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The angel was a minister like John, who had the testimony of being saved just like John.

EB I think the debate is about the angel of the church in chapter 2 unless I totally missed it.

Tithesmeister · #**245** 06-21-2018, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

ok so lets use probability;

See my previous post. The probability is 50% that it is a pastor, and 50% that it is a messenger. This probability is NOT based on Bible, but instead is based on a definition of angel found in Strong's. So we're going to roll the dice?
If you would admit that MOST messengers in the Bible were NOT pastors, that would be an exercise in honesty. How about you make that confession?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

is it more probable that an angel or heavenly being would have a necessity that a person write to them about problems in a church and how to correct it?

How about this scenario. If we are going to use logic (which I'm not sure is appropriate in Revelation) we have Jesus giving a message to John, and then John is going to turn around and give it to pastors? I thought it was y'all's position that the pastors were messengers. Why didn't Jesus just give them the message?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Or is it more probable that a person would need to be written to concerning problems in a church?

For the church at Ephesus, we have already verified that they were overseen by a plurality of elders. I provided scripture. Remember? So that particular church would be addressed through the elders. We could assume that the other churches were as well, but it is not an assumption that the only direct oversight of the churches in the Bible that we have record of, is in every case a plurality of elders. No exceptions. NEVER is it mentioned that a pastor has this position. Feel free to quote scripture otherwise, or just ignore it, like you have been doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Is it more probable that an angel would relay the message written?

The probability is that the angel would be a heavenly being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Or is it more probable that a person would relay the message written?

There are many persons that are NOT pastors. Am I right? So IF the messenger was a person, the probability would be that said person would NOT be a pastor.

Evang.Benincasa · #**246** 06-21-2018, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

EB I think the debate is about the angel of the church in chapter 2 unless I totally missed it.

I'm sorry, I was just throwing that in there. I wasn't really following.

Sorry, please proceed.

Apostolic1ness · #**247** 06-21-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

How many in each city

No idea.

Tithesmeister · #**248** 06-21-2018, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

According to Paul, elders were to be ordained in every city by Titus.

Amen

Apostolic1ness · #**249** 06-21-2018, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

See my previous post. The probability is 50% that it is a pastor, and 50% that it is a messenger. This probability is NOT based on Bible, but instead is based on a definition of angel found in Strong's. So we're going to roll the dice?
If you would admit that MOST messengers in the Bible were NOT pastors, that would be an exercise in honesty. How about you make that confession?

How about this scenario. If we are going to use logic (which I'm not sure is appropriate in Revelation) we have Jesus giving a message to John, and then John is going to turn around and give it to pastors? I thought it was y'all's position that the pastors were messengers. Why didn't Jesus just give them the message?

For the church at Ephesus, we have already verified that they were overseen by a plurality of elders. I provided scripture. Remember? So that particular church would be addressed through the elders. We could assume that the other churches were as well, but it is not an assumption that the only direct oversight of the churches in the Bible that we have record of, is in every case a plurality of elders. No exceptions. NEVER is it mentioned that a pastor has this position. Feel free to quote scripture otherwise, or just ignore it, like you have been doing.

The probability is that the angel would be a heavenly being.

There are many persons that are NOT pastors. Am I right? So IF the messenger was a person, the probability would be that said person would NOT be a pastor.

So your saying that an angelic being would read the letter to the church?

Also could it be that a pastor is included in the elders of the church?

Amanah · #**250** 06-21-2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

So your saying that an angelic being would read the letter to the church?

Also could it be that a pastor is included in the elders of the church?

Elders have the offices of evangelists, pastors and teachers, so its perfecting sensible to think that the letter was send to an elder.

Ephesians 4:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: