Those who never heard about Jesus? - Page 28

Antipas · #**271** 08-25-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Simple math proves that 'truth' is objective, not relative. I said nothing about an ability to do arithmetic computations as a prerequisite to discerning spiritual truth. However, an inability to recognise the existence of 'objective truth' as a reality is a bar to being able to discern spiritual truths.

The word "objective" means

Objective
ADJECTIVE
1.(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts:

Can you show me how it is an objective fact that snakes can talk?

Quote:

Wrong, that is not a demonstration of alternative truths. It is a demonstration of alternative opinions. A more proper analogy would be the painter paints the field, as it is raining, without the rain, while claiming it was an accurate representation of the field at that particular point in time (as it was raining). The painter says 'Well, in MY truth there is no rain, because that's not happy' whereas the farmer says 'Boy, you artistes sure are dumb, cause you can't tell when it's rainin and when it aint.' Either it's raining, or it's not. Either the painting is an accurate rendition of the facts at the time, or it's not.

Whether the raining is 'good' for the painter or the farmer is not a matter of TRUTH, but opinion. The rancher down the road might have an altogether different opinion than either the painter or the farmer. When the farmer says 'it is good' he means 'I want it, I like it, I have a need and this fulfills the need'. The rancher may think 'it is bad' meaning 'I have to bale hay today but now it's raining and all wet and so I have to put it off another day thus delaying the acquisition of winter feed for my cattle and so I don't like the rain today'. None of them are statements of objective truth except as statements of the individuals' opinions. 'It is raining' vs 'it is not raining' is a statement of objective truth-claims, one of which is false if the other is true.

While it is opinion, is not each opinion "true" for them?

Quote:

Perception is not reality. Ask anyone who works as a caregiver for a dementia patient or a schizophrenic.

While the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic is not a reality for the caregiver... is not the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic reality to them?

Quote:

More fallacy of equivocation. Truth is that which corresponds to reality - ie FACT.

TRUTH, noun

1. Conformity to fact or reality; exact accordance with that which is, or has been, or shall be. The truth of history constitutes its whole value. We rely on the truth of the scriptural prophecies.

My mouth shall speak truth Proverbs 8:7.

Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth John 17:17.

2. True state of facts or things. The duty of a court of justice is to discover the truth Witnesses are sworn to declare the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

3. Conformity of words to thoughts, which is called moral truth

Shall truth fail to keep her word?

4. Veracity; purity from falsehood; practice of speaking truth; habitual disposition to speak truth; as when we say, a man is a man of truth

5. Correct opinion.

6. Fidelity; constancy.

The thoughts of past pleasure and truth

7. Honesty; virtue.

It must appear

That malice bears down truth

8. Exactness; conformity to rule.

Plows, to go true, depend much on the truth of the iron work. [Not in use.]

9. Real fact of just principle; real state of things. There are innumerable truths with which we are not acquainted.

10. Sincerity.

God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth John 4:23.

11. The truth of God, is his veracity and faithfulness. Psalms 71:22.

Or his revealed will.

I have walked in thy truth Psalms 26:3.

12. Jesus Christ is called the truth John 14.

13. It is sometimes used by way of concession.

She said, truth Lord; yet the dogs eat of the crums-- Matthew 15:27.

That is, it is a truth; what you have said, I admit to be true.

In truth in reality; in fact.

Of a truth in reality; certainly.

To do truth is to practice what God commands. John 3. (Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language)

So we see that your premises are factually incorrect, so it is no wonder that your conclusions are likewise factually incorrect, that is to say, not true.

It appears you do not understand what role parables, fables, maxims, anecdotes, proverbs, and aphorisms serve in conveying truth. The story is a parable. A parable is a fictitious story designed to illustrate a fact, generally a moral rule, maxim, or ethical statement of fact. The story is fictitious, the moral of the story ('liars lose credibility even when they later tell the truth') is a moral axiom. Universal observation indicates the axiom is generally truthful, meaning the story illustrates a truth, namely that in most circumstances people do not believe known liars even if the liar states a truth. Although it is also generally true that the gullible and those not disposed to objective truth tend to believe known or even proven liars.

I think you have not really thought out the things you have accepted as the framework of your worldview. I see numerous factual errors in your premises, and assumptions, as well as lack of familiarity with the various genres of 'spiritual literature' as illustrated by your obvious unfamiliarity with the concept of parables and how they relate to 'truth'.

As a result, I do believe you are not at all qualified to make any kind of believable statements about 'the world's religions' and much less about mankind's religious literature.

Again, if a person can't recognise that 1+1=2 as an objective fact not subject to opinion then it is highly doubtful they have anything substantive to say about metaphysics and philosophy.

Please prove that the Bible is objective fact. The whole world is waiting. I propose that, according to your own argument, if the Bible cannot be proven factually, it can't be "truth".

If at a loss as to where to begin, you can begin by proving that it is a "fact" that snakes can talk.

shazeep · #**272** 08-25-2016, 10:58 AM

mfblume · #**273** 08-25-2016, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

The word "objective" means

Objective
ADJECTIVE
1.(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts:

Can you show me how it is an objective fact that snakes can talk?

While it is opinion, is not each opinion "true" for them?

While the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic is not a reality for the caregiver... is not the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic reality to them?

Please prove that the Bible is objective fact. The whole world is waiting. I propose that, according to your own argument, if the Bible cannot be proven factually, it can't be "truth".

If at a loss as to where to begin, you can begin by proving that it is a "fact" that snakes can talk.

Think of truth as what a court of law seeks. A crime had been committed and truth is not a variable according to how some may feel. One conclusion must be drawn amidst amidst all the apparent chaos. Truth is not arbitrary in this. Something happened and there isn't room for contradiction. Someone is innocent or guilty. It can't be more than one way.

By the way a snake didn't talk. A creature that later became a snake by a curse is what talked.

shazeep · #**274** 08-25-2016, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Think of truth as what a court of law seeks.

this is an excellent analogue, as everyone knows that truth is not relevant in a courtroom. courtrooms do not even seek to establish truth, for all of their poking at it. try telling the truth to your lawyer. he is going to look at you funny. this approach is infected with law, and will not serve you. the truth is in someone's face, or the lack of reply to a post. it is in the illusion of certainty apparent in the overwhelming desire to pin a passage of Scripture down to a static definition.

the truth is not an objective thing, despite one's impression of it. so if you think it is, there are plenty of treatises online now to dispute this ok it is not even debatable. it is a sign of a closed mind. my truth is the only truth. please.

mfblume · #**275** 08-25-2016, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

this is an excellent analogue, as everyone knows that truth is not relevant in a courtroom. courtrooms do not even seek to establish truth, for all of their poking at it. try telling the truth to your lawyer. he is going to look at you funny. this approach is infected with law, and will not serve you. the truth is in someone's face, or the lack of reply to a post. it is in the illusion of certainty apparent in the overwhelming desire to pin a passage of Scripture down to a static definition.

the truth is not an objective thing, despite one's impression of it. so if you think it is, there are plenty of treatises online now to dispute this ok it is not even debatable. it is a sign of a closed mind. my truth is the only truth. please.

lol.

You try to make Christ's words arbitrary as if we each have OUR OWN truth, and since it is OUR truth it must be right. Oh wait... everybody except the Christians' truth, though.

Truth is absolute and there is no variable in it, or truth is not truth at all. Words lost all meaning.

Keep dashing the faith in the cross. It's a popular trend today.

Evang.Benincasa · #**276** 08-25-2016, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

lol.

You try to make Christ's words arbitrary as if we each have OUR OWN truth, and since it is OUR truth it must be right. Oh wait... everybody except the Christians' truth, though.

Truth is absolute and there is no variable in it, or truth is not truth at all. Words lost all meaning.

Keep dashing the faith in the cross. It's a popular trend today.

Did I ever show you a picture of shazeep's Sunday school class?

shazeep · #**277** 08-26-2016, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh wait... everybody except the Christians' truth, though.

funny to hear you say this after discounting every Word Christ said, but i understand. You might reflect upon how an absolute truth would make manifesting the Spirit impossible; humans cannot walk on water, etc. But Jesus walked on water, in human form. All i can do is give you an opinion, i admit this, but facts will deceive you if you let them.

I notice no one ever even acknowledged KBTW, someone you surely respect? The point being one can easily get to a place where they shut out any information that conflicts with their opinion, even from people they respect.

Jito463 · #**278** 08-26-2016, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

While the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic is not a reality for the caregiver... is not the experience of the dementia patient or a schizophrenic reality to them?

And their "reality" is based on a lie. Congratulations on making his point for him.

shazeep · #**279** 08-26-2016, 11:58 AM

ya...no.

mfblume · #**280** 08-27-2016, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipas

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus is "THE" way not "A" way.

Paul said:

Galatians 1:6-9 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

And what is the gospel Paul preached?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV (1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Preach anything other than this and Paul said you're accursed. His words, not mine.

The one who spoke those words not only abided in Christ, but he also abides in many many others. Indeed, he is THE WAY. And that way has appeared unto all men in various cultures, languages, and understandings. And he will always be THE WAY.

You just overlooked everything I wrote. Paul denied what you are saying. If these other religions never mentioned the cross of Jesus, they are false. The one in them is not the one who was in Paul.

Your view effectively renders good to be evil and evil to be good. Truth is arbitrary and relative to the person thinking it. You speak of the reality one person has compared to the reality another has, as though truth is arbitrary,. That means if truth to one person means homsoexaulity is sin and those in it are in evil, and truth to another person means homosexaulity is not sin and those in it are in what is good, as though they will be judged based on what their reality is, then what is evil to the one person is good to the other. And what is evil to the other is good to the one.

What better way to say good is evil and evil is good!

What is darkness to pone person is light to the other. It depends on their personal reality. In effect, once again, darkness is called light from one perspective and vice versa for the other.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!