Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

you have had plenty of opportunity to intervene with an opinion, but now you offer some irrelevant one concerning my reasoning abilities after the fact? Don't you know rational thinking will kill you? How is Hate your life rational? So, you have like one more post to make, and you might make it a good one.

[mfblume]

Shazeep why are you not answering my question about the Koran verse and the bible verse? Why are you not reconciling how people who believe that verse in the Koran can be saved? Every time I present scripture you never deal with it. This is a blatant pattern with you. You engage in long chats where scripture is not laid out and presented, and that enables you to say things like, "There are scriptures that prove you wrong." But when scriptures are actually laid out, you never say anything.

It's easy to make all these bravado claims about what's in the bible when you present no actual bible. But it becomes plain what is happening when bible is presented and you say nothing.

It's like someone touting words about how much they know law, and yet never quote it. And when a law book is presented, they cannot deal with it. It proves their claims to be error.

You're fine when no bible is actually laid out. But as soon as you're asked to prove your point by laying out scripture, and showing what parts of the scripture make your case, and why other beliefs cannot stand the point made by those parts of the scripture, you are silent.

[mfblume]

bump

Interesting why this question is is being refused an answer. It betrays the underlying issue!!

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, reconcile these two passages:

"And because of their (the Jews) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger- they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise."

And...

Joh 19:17-18 KJV And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: (18) Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

[shazeep]

sorry, but i am done with your obfuscation on the matter, Mike. I dont mean to be rude, but you are seeking division, and i am not interested. All Catholics are lost tells me all i need to know about you.

If you want to debate Scripture, there are plenty of paces where you left the conversation because you could not offer a reply to my quotation of It; return to one of those and we can talk.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

sorry, but i am done with your obfuscation on the matter, Mike. I dont mean to be rude, but you are seeking division, and i am not interested. All Catholics are lost tells me all i need to know about you.

If you want to debate Scripture, there are plenty of paces where you left the conversation because you could not offer a reply to my quotation of It; return to one of those and we can talk.

You cannot answer. Just say so. No excuses. Just you cannot deal with that correlation. I'm seeking no division. I just see it due to the sword of the word.

Your refusal speaks volumes.

I already asked you to list scriptures I did not deal with, and you failed and failed, until finally scantly listed some and I dealt with that list. Do it again. I do not know of any I missed. But whenever I do that you run and hide like you did here, and then act as though you didn't like you did here.

So I;m not playing your games any more.

Tell me how you believe the cross is vital for salvation and yet think that verse in the Koran allows someone who believes in it to be saved.

[shazeep]

look, if you think 'i'm rubber, and you're glue' and mirroring me is a valid defense, then go for it. I am not interested in evaluating the contentious passages of a foreign dogma which may not even be held dear by a foreigner, when we condemn the Pentecostal sect across the street to hell for using the same Bible that we do. You are passing camels while straining at gnats, imo. Just go back to one of the last times, multiple, that you disengaged on this thread, over a Scriptural answer, if you actually want to discuss; i am not interested in any win by sophistry, or i would not even bother.

I could just as easily quote the Qur'an at you where it reconciles with the Bible, or quote Scripture that you cannot reconcile, and i have done both. That doesn't necessarily mean that i am right, but that you do not know, as demonstrated by your hanging on to bashing Muslims--a much more comfortable area for you, no doubt--when i have moved on to Catholics--like, a month ago--to better illustrate the point. I should have gone right to Trinny Pents, possibly, but why belabor the obvious. Goodbye.

[shazeep]

You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself.

I am condemning no one.

it's not black. just honestly asked you to reconcile the two passages since your claims make no sense about possibility for people who believe that statement in the Koran to be saved.

I heard them read Ali's words at his funeral where he tried to do as many good things as possible do he would go to heaven. salvation by works.

[shazeep]

yes, i heard that and agree--which does not mean that Ali is in hell. And yes, i am not denying that there are (also) passages in the Qur'an that are troubling. But all it takes is one Muslim who listens to God instead of Muslim dogma to make you wrong. More importantly, if you cannot even reconcile with those using the same Book as you, what is the point of looking for division elsewhere? It strikes me as a divorced person attempting to be a marriage counselor, wadr.

You are judging dogma--and a foreign dogma at that, for which you have no cultural context--when God plainly states that He does not judge like you do, and examines the heart of a person. So you can say "i am not condemning" all you like, but when you follow that with "All Catholics are lost," or any other label that is not "evil-doers" or "sinners" or whatever, when you do not know, you are rejecting God's Grace, and you will be judged to be sanctimonious and a hypocrite, and i don't mean in some future judgement, which Scripture may also not always mean either. You are being sanctimonious and hypocritical right now, and have been judged.

So you would have to prove that a Muslim believes that, and then you would have to prove that it means the same thing to them that it does to you, and then you would have to prove that this condemns them in God's eyes, and somewhere along the line you would have to note that you are in a sense living in sin, searching for others' sins, trying to define sin for a foreigner, and showing yourself to be a hypocrite in the process.

Might some or most Catholics or Muslims be lost? Certainly, but that is hardly the point. You yourself are not yet saved, and i can prove it with Scripture; but you are being sanctimonious and judgemental, and the fact that you are so sure--when a poll will tell you that your brethren feel otherwise--is another strong indication, and the final nail might be that you have come all the way to my position, essentially, with "sects don't matter, the heart matters," even if you are still trying to assert "All Catholics are lost," which after all is just a different sect, so i'm not sure how to even make sense of that.

So it is you who is lost--and i am not condemning you, of course, because i read this in Scripture; Judge not, lest you be judged et al, tra-la.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, i heard that and agree--which does not mean that Ali is in hell.

I won't say where Ali is. But I will say no one can be saved through salvation by works. It's not about Ali. It's about doctrine.

And yes, i am not denying that there are (also) passages in the Qur'an that are troubling. But all it takes is one Muslim who listens to God instead of Muslim dogma to make you wrong.

You miss my point. They would not be muslim in that case, would they? If one muslim rejects that statement in the koran and hears from God, that person will no longer be Muslim.

More importantly, if you cannot even reconcile with those using the same Book as you, what is the point of looking for division elsewhere? It strikes me as a divorced person attempting to be a marriage counselor, wadr.

It's not a matter of using the same book. It's a matter of obeying what it says. And when it comes to people who claim the cross alone grants them righteousness and saves, then I will never say they are lost. I don't care what denomination they belong to.

You are judging dogma--and a foreign dogma at that, for which you have no cultural context--when God plainly states that He does not judge like you do, and examines the heart of a person.

Wait a minute. What? That is a plain statement and needs no cultural background to understand. Either the Lord was actually crucified, which work is necessary for our salvation, or he was not. And it's only obfuscating the simple and basic point to say otherwise.

So you can say "i am not condemning" all you like, but when you follow that with "All Catholics are lost," or any other label that is not "evil-doers" or "sinners" or whatever, when you do not know, you are rejecting God's Grace, and you will be judged to be sanctimonious and a hypocrite, and i don't mean in some future judgement, which Scripture may also not always mean either. You are being sanctimonious and hypocritical right now, and have been judged.

I am condemning no one. The bible and His word has already condemned anyone, as Jesus said. You just like shooting the messenger because you don;t like the message God is conveying. It's not about mulsims or catholics. It's about believing the work fo the cross alone saves and grants us righteousness.

So you would have to prove that a Muslim believes that, and then you would have to prove that it means the same thing to them that it does to you, and then you would have to prove that this condemns them in God's eyes, and somewhere along the line you would have to note that you are in a sense living in sin, searching for others' sins, trying to define sin for a foreigner, and showing yourself to be a hypocrite in the process.

No one has to prove anything. Muslims are told to believe the Koran's statement that claims Jesus did not even die. No one can slither out of that direct point no matter how hard they try.

Man, you seem to be like someone who reads the words, "It's not black," and will do anything to excuse someone who says it claims it's white.

Might some or most Catholics or Muslims be lost? Certainly, but that is hardly the point.

I have been saying all along that is not the point. You don't read that though.

You yourself are not yet saved, and i can prove it with Scripture;

You read and do not understand what you read because you do not read it with intention to actually get something from the writing.

I said MANY TIMES that in one sense NO ONE IS SAVED YET. But as The New Testament plainly states, in another sense PEOPLE ALIVE ARE CONSIDERED SAVED. And yet in a third sense WE ARE BEING SAVED.

You dismiss any verse that disagrees with your position that no one is saved, like the ones that definitely stay living people are indeed saved, and pawn them off as though God were trying to trip someone up that was dishonest.

SHALL BE SAVED:
Romans 5:9 KJV Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

(but that is not talking about saved from sin, but from wrath).

ALREADY SAVED:
1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 2:15 KJV For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

but you are being sanctimonious and judgemental, and the fact that you are so sure--when a poll will tell you that your brethren feel otherwise--is another strong indication, and the final nail might be that you have come all the way to my position, essentially, with "sects don't matter, the heart matters," even if you are still trying to assert "All Catholics are lost," which after all is just a different sect, so i'm not sure how to even make sense of that.

I already said it's not a matter of whether or not all catholics are lost. lol

But you read NOTHING I say. So...

So it is you who is lost--and i am not condemning you, of course, because i read this in Scripture; Judge not, lest you be judged et al, tra-la.

I never judged. God already judged by His word.

Try again, Shazeep.

And by the way, if I did judge, which I did not, Jesus never said I am lost. He never said "Judge not lest ye be lost." he said, Judge not lest ye be judged." What did he mean by that? He meant that a person cannot judge another person in a particular issue that the first person has a problem with as well. But you have twisted that passage, with the whole unbelieving world, since they all say the same huge error you just said, and think it means "Judge not lest ye be lost."

But I already explained that MORE THAN ONCE and you just refuse to change your opinion on that verse.

My doctrine leads to me to understand everyone who denies the work of the cross as the sole source for righteousness and salvation is lost.