Sabbath: In A Ditch Regarding the Seventh Day

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Paul specifically equates baptism with circumscision...so yes.

No he does not equate it with circumcision. He says we are circumcised in the heart, not flesh.


But since you brought that up, hebrews speaks of another rest

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Paul specifically equates baptism with circumscision...so yes.

Antipas, you skipped over several of my posts for that one on circumcision, can you address the others?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Antipas, you skipped over several of my posts for that one on circumcision, can you address the others?

I noticed he seemed to be selective about what posts he chooses to respond to.

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Praise the Lord, welcome to the discussion.

Oh I only pointed to a thread, Avahat Elohim wrote it: but since you didn't click on the thread I'll cut and paste it for you:

There have been many opinions expressed on this topic here. Especially in regard to keeping Shabbat.

May I present the Jewish perspective?

God loves us all. "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). He does not leave anyone, Jew or non-Jew without guidance. To the non-Jew He has given the Seven Commandments.

After the flood which killed everyone but Noah and his family, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following seven admonitions:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws

These Seven Laws of Noah are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Judaism states any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and often network in Jewish synagogues.

In Judaism, the ten commandments given Moses and the resulting 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore only binding upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. Some Rabbinic opinion holds that not only are non-Jews not obligated to adhere to all the laws of the Torah, but they are actually forbidden to observe them. Rabbinic Judaism AND its modern-day descendants discourage proselytization. The Noahide Laws are regarded as the way through which non-Jews can have a direct and meaningful relationship with God or at least comply with the minimal requisites of civilization and of divine law.

The Talmud states a non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest). In a similar statement Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah that a non-Jew who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a "Righteous Gentile" and has earned a place in the world to come.

Some such as Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Chabad Lubavitch world Jewish movement believe that the Noahide Laws observance by all humankind will bring about universal peace and the Messianic Redemption.

(However, according to Maimonides, a gentile is considered righteous only if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because he or she considers them to be of divine origin, through the Torah, and not if they are merely considered to be intellectually compelling or good rules for living.)

From the perspective of traditional halakhah, if a non-Jew keeps all of the laws covered by the Seven Noahide commandments, then he or she is considered a Ger Toshav "Sojourning Alien" amid the people of Israel. A "Ger Toshav" is the only kind of non-Jew who Jewish law permits to live among the Jewish people in the Land of Israel when the land is run according to Halacha and there is Sanhedrin/Temple.

(A Ger Toshav should not be confused with a Ger Tzedek who is a person who prefers to proceed to total conversion to Judaism, a procedure that is traditionally discouraged by Judaism and allowed to take place only after much thought and deliberation over converting.)

At this point I am sure there are others better qualified who would like to take up the discussion on the following topic:

It my understanding that the main disagreement among the early “apostles” was because the gentiles converts to Yeshua where considered by some to be Ger Tzedek and therefore should also obey all the mitzvot, but one Apostle Paul argued that Christianity was not just a division of Judaism and the gentiles should not bring themselves under the law, but were instead saved by “grace.”

(Perhaps part of the reason some thought the gentile coverts to Christianity to be Ger Tzedek may have been in part because of the baptism rituals practiced by Christians, which so closely mirrored those followed by gentiles who converted to Judaism, but that will be a different article).

Shalom

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Are the Ten Commandments...commandments?

The argument from silence doesn't speak volumes. For the writers of Scripture often take for granted regular practices or experiences.

A change of covenants is too serious a matter to leave anyone guessing what and what not is retained. I claim Rom 14 shows sabbath keeping is offkey today as well as Col 2 and Gal 4.

For example nowhere does the Scripture state that the Philippian Jailor spoke in tongues or was baptized in the Holy Ghost. Why didn't the writer write about it? Because in Luke's mind it was a given, a no brainer, assumed that the reader wouldn't know any other process.

Of course! That is because the REST of the New Testament showed it forth.

Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not binding?

No. Why think that? I am saying that the 10- Commandments are all repeated in the New Covenant except for the fourth. And the fourth is directly said to be fulfilled in Christ in Col 2, Gal 4, and is spoken against in Rom 14.

That doesn't compare. We see repeated references to the Sabbath being kept and even repeated commandments to keep it.

Never were we told to keep sabbath in the New Testament. Never. It stands that the Bible could not tell us all the things to NOT do, for there would be too many.

It appears that the Church may have continued keeping the Sabbath seeing the references in Acts.

We cannot base doctirne on what would appear. Imagine if salvation were left up to what appeared to be the case without direct teaching about it?

However, the authors would have been taking it for granted not knowing that hundreds of years later the days would be shifted.

God inspired the writers knowing we would be reading this thousands of years later.

For example in the Revelation John writes that he was in the Spirit on, "the Lord's day". We often assume that was Sunday...but the only "Lord's day" John would have known would have been the Sabbath day...for that is the only day in Scripture refered to as being such. As for infant baptism...we see it NOWHERE. So the two really don't compare.

Yes they do compare. The Sabbath was never called the LORD'S DAY, for one thing.

Why didn't any Jew ever condemn Paul or any Christian for not keeping the Sabbath?

Paul did not want that to be an issue to throw walls up before the Jews. He became all things to all people so that he might win some.

Nowhere does Scripture call the weekly Sabbath (the seventh day Sabbath) a shadow. The sabbaths refered to as being shadows are the high holy days of the Jewish Calander...they are not part of the Ten Commandments.

Sabbath day was a sabbath. lol.

Col 2 mentions SABBATH DAYS, and does not distinguish them.

God established the Sabbath at Creation and having created man on the sixth day, kept man at rest in the garden on the Seventh Day.

Show me where God told man to rest back there.

The Sabbath deals with God...God is commanding a time set apart for him, so it has to do with our dealing with God. Would one "spiritualize" the commandment against adultery?

God spiritualized sabbath, not me. And adultery has a spiritual version as well as physical, but not so with sabbath any more. And I already said the sabbath was unique in that sense.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Jews see no issue with keeping the Sabbath in exotic environments. I think that's grasping for dismal.

It is an issue. Jews excused demands to properly keep every law with the Babylonian Talmud anyway. Sundown to sundown is the commandment and does not work everywhere.

I think you keep sabbath, or are going to, and are using this idea of taking the sabbath side as a ruse. lol

My example shows that sabbath was meant for ISRAEL ALONE, and not the world. God was not stupid. He said sundown to sundown. However way any Jews twist that today is still a twist.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

To the non-Jew He has given the Seven Commandments.

After the flood which killed everyone but Noah and his family, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following seven admonitions:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to fairly judge observance of the preceding six laws

These Seven Laws of Noah are a set of seven moral imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Judaism states any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and often network in Jewish synagogues.

Note that the Bible does not contain these seven laws in Noah's account, but it appears in Jewish writings Christians do not consider inspired of God.

A Jew regards a gentile as violating the first Noahide Law against idolatry if he/she believes Jesus is God incarnate. Pass the Noahide laws and in time Christianity will be illegal.

Carry on!

[TRFrance]

Some interesting comments I also found on the 'net regarding the topic at hand:

Sabbatarians Are Not Keeping The Saturday Sabbath


Saturday Sabbatarians claim to keep the Sabbath command as was given to Israel, but in reality are only keeping a modified Sabbath regulation, which is not keeping it at all! Below are three reasons why this is so:


(A) In the OT, when this command was given to Israel and enforced, people were to be put to death for desecrating the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14,15):

"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo. 31:14-17).

A man was put to death for violating this command (Num. 15:32-36). So the same ones (Israel) that kept the Sabbath put to death Sabbath violators. Sabbatarians are NOT doing this!

(B) The Sabbath keepers were NOT allowed to light a fire on the Sabbath day:

"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day" (Ex. 35:3, KJV).

If your heat in the winter is automatic through your furnace, you are violating this command. If you light your stove on the Sabbath you violate this command. If have an automatic hot water heater you are violating this command. Finally, if you start your car on the Sabbath, you have also violated this command given to Israel. Note: When you start your car, you start a fire that did not exist moments before.

(C) On "EVERY Sabbath" there is to be a burnt offering:

"On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil. This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering" (Num. 28:9,10).

This OT command for Sabbath keepers is clearly forbidden under the New Covenant in light of the book of Hebrews. The early Christians didn't do this and, therefore, did not keep the Saturday Sabbath command like Israel (Ex. 20:8-11 cf. Num. 28:9,10).


(full article here: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/sabbath.htm)

[Sept5SavedTeen]

I am a former SDA, and there's a sister in my assembly who is also a former SDA, and we joke about our time with that group and our sabbath keeping.

Antipas,
I DO believe in the "spiritual sabbath" as you say. I believe ALL the moral Law has been magnified and "spiritualized" if you will. It's not "Thou shall not commit adultery" it's "Thou shalt not lust" for me, and it's not "Thou shall not murder" it is "Thou shall not hate thy brother", this is what has happened with the Ten Commandments, and as for #4, I now find my rest in Christ. I don't even try to argue with sabbath keepers about Sunday, because Sunday has no special significance. Worship on Saturday or Sunday if you want, it doesn't matter. Rest from your labor when you desire, as long as you are not "resting" all the time, which would be lazy, and a Christian wouldn't want to be lazy anyways. And rest spiritually knowing that Christ did HIS work on the cross and nailed the Law to the cross!

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

[Jason B]

Antipas,
Here are my thoughts. I belive the entire law of moses 613 commands was in effect until the death of Christ and subsequent resurrection.

Matt 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

When was all fulfilled,
John 19:30
Hebrews 9:15-17
Ephesians 2:13-16
Hebrews 7:12, 18-19,22

You asked, “Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are not binding?”
I believe that all of the law was done away with, including the 10 commandments which were part of the law. (similar to what church of christ teaches-exceprt for I equate the law with the 613 laws, not the entire old testament, which is their error, and why they think they have to preach against musical instruments).
However, 9 of the 10 commandments are repeated, and even taken to a higher level (ex. adultery can be mental, not only physical).

I think that silence on the sabbath, combined with the teachings from Hebrews 4 and Colossians 2, as well as romans 14, is quite a bit of teaching on the subject. It is not binding, in fact it is basically impossible to keep as laid out in the Old testament.