The Second Coming of Christ

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

I disagree that the rapture and the resurrection happened at the same time and both happen at the second coming of Christ. At least in the way you believe it.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17

Verses 13-16 speak of the dead and their resurrection. Verse 17 shows that those that were not dead at the time of the resurrection, who were alive past the resurrection would not be subject to the grave as their dead counterparts were but would be caught up to meet the Lord. When? 2Cor 5 says it will be realized when we put off this earthy house.

1Corinthians 15:27-50

Lays out that Jesus is the first fruits. Therefore the only visible proof of the resurrection needed.

1Corinthians 15:50-53

1)Says the physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom.
2)Those after the resurrection would not go to the grave. The prison for bodiless souls.
3)This would happen at the last trump.

1Corinthians 15:54-57

Clearly shows this would happen at the removal of the law system. AD 70 Coming and Judgment did just that with the Temple removed. This happened in Matt 24, which is a direct link to Daniel 12. Matt 24 has no gap in it's completion as you have failed to show one, and this all would happen within one generation. Jesus' generation per his own words. From the resurrection onward, with hell or the grave emptied, no one would go there again. For the Saved, the grave has no victory, and death has no sting.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The change is being caught up so that we do not see the grave. The last trump sealed our future in eternity.

Word Count: 296

BTW Remember it's one question, please don't expect the other person to address a dozen verses with a word count of 300. This is question and answer.

Jason it's your question again. After Afp answers he will then ask 2 questions

[Jason B]

I do not get to respond correct-just get 1 additional question?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason

I do not get to respond correct-just get 1 additional question?

Correct, then you have closing remarks where if you feel to add anything you can.

[Jason B]

Brother AFP:

Everyone (including FP's) believe that when Jesus comes back (came back in your eschatology) that Satan will be bound. The Bible teaches that He will no longer decieve the nations (Revelation 20:1-3),that the nations will no longer learn war anymore (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3), and the lion eating straw like the ox, children playing on the whole of an asp, etc. God said He would create a new heavens and new earth. The last enemy destroyed will be death. (Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Revelation 21, 1 Corinthians 15).

My question is: In light of these scriptures, how can Full Preterism teach that Jesus Christ has returned when this world remains wicked, sinful, apostate, filled with heathen religions, war, disease, famine, sexual immorality and open pornography, suffering, the works of Satan, and death everywhere? [Is this the new earth?]

[afp1996]

Your question is faulty on so many levels, chiefly in that you assume that AFP's interpret the Bible by worldly events rather that interpreting worldly events by the Bible. Second to this is that you assume that mankind needs Satan to sin, so there you think that removing Satan from the picture would do away with sin. Gen. 6:5. Satan is not mentioned in this passage at all. As long as there are sinful people in the world there will be these things. The blood of Jesus is enough to remove all of this from a persons life, but it is the individual that must obey God's Word. Sin in the world does not depend on the Coming of the Lord anymore than it did his Crucifixion. If so, then Sin would have ended in the world when Jesus died.

Rev 22:11-15 This scripture could not be true in your futurist belief because by the time New Jerusalem comes down sin will have been done away with, or at least I assume that is what you believe. However, in AFP it fits perfectly.

As for your scriptures: Satan could not deceive the nations during the thousand year reign. Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3 can be understood by the following scriptures: Acts 10:10-16, 28, I Cor 9:9, I Tim 5:18.

A New Heaven and A New Earth: Isaiah 65:1-25, 1Kings 8, 2Peter 3:10-13, Gal. 4:1-31, Heb. 1:10-12, Heb 12:18-29, Mat. 5:14-18. From these scriptures we can see that Heaven/Earth, New Heaven/Earth are biblically understood as natural Israel, the Old Covenant, the physical Temple and Jerusalem verses the Israel of God, the New Covenant, and Jesus and his Church.

Jesus and his Church are the New Heaven and the New Earth. Where a person spends eternity is another subject altogether.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Your question is faulty on so many levels, chiefly in that you assume that AFP's interpret the Bible by worldly events rather that interpreting worldly events by the Bible. Second to this is that you assume that mankind needs Satan to sin, so there you think that removing Satan from the picture would do away with sin. Gen. 6:5. Satan is not mentioned in this passage at all. As long as there are sinful people in the world there will be these things. The blood of Jesus is enough to remove all of this from a persons life, but it is the individual that must obey God's Word. Sin in the world does not depend on the Coming of the Lord anymore than it did his Crucifixion. If so, then Sin would have ended in the world when Jesus died.

Rev 22:11-15 This scripture could not be true in your futurist belief because by the time New Jerusalem comes down sin will have been done away with, or at least I assume that is what you believe. However, in AFP it fits perfectly.

As for your scriptures: Satan could not deceive the nations during the thousand year reign. Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3 can be understood by the following scriptures: Acts 10:10-16, 28, I Cor 9:9, I Tim 5:18.

A New Heaven and A New Earth: Isaiah 65:1-25, 1Kings 8, 2Peter 3:10-13, Gal. 4:1-31, Heb. 1:10-12, Heb 12:18-29, Mat. 5:14-18. From these scriptures we can see that Heaven/Earth, New Heaven/Earth are biblically understood as natural Israel, the Old Covenant, the physical Temple and Jerusalem verses the Israel of God, the New Covenant, and Jesus and his Church.

Jesus and his Church are the New Heaven and the New Earth. Where a person spends eternity is another subject altogether.

Word Count: 297

Remember, if there is something you disagree with in an answer you can comment in your concluding remarks.

Now AFP will ask a question and Jason will answer

[afp1996]

You have already stated that some passages in Matthew 24 are speaking specifically of the 70AD Judgment (Which I call the Coming of the Lord) and some passages speak specifically of your supposed Future Second Coming. For you to come to such a conclusion, then there must be a systematic way of determining this. Others reading this chapter most certainly must be able to come to the same conclusion as did yourself. Therefore my question is:

Where specifically is the GAP between the 70AD Judgment and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by afp1996

You have already stated that some passages in Matthew 24 are speaking specifically of the 70AD Judgment (Which I call the Coming of the Lord) and some passages speak specifically of your supposed Future Second Coming. For you to come to such a conclusion, then there must be a systematic way of determining this. Others reading this chapter most certainly must be able to come to the same conclusion as did yourself. Therefore my question is:

Where specifically is the GAP between the 70AD Judgment and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24?

You ask a good question. Certainly all of full preterism hangs on this one chapter (not to mention re-dating Revelation). I would do well to point out that there are many Christians who believe all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in AD70, yet still understand that there remains a future coming of the Lord. Included in this number are partial preterists, such as Bro. Blume.

If this is your smoking gun, it comes up short on many levels.
Now understanding that among those looking for His future Second Coming there are those who believe that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled completely and those who believe there is a gap.

I do believe that there is a gap, I'm willing to admit on this one point I am not 100% certain at this time. However, I tend to believe there is a gap based on Daniels 70 weeks, that the 69th and 70th weeks were seperated, and that an event called the abomination of desolation is to occour. I do not believe that the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem was that event.

This is because the AOD was said to happen in the Holy Place in the temple, Matthew 24:15, 2Thessalonians 2:3-4, and that this event will begin the great tribulation. Due to word count, I will have to stop here.

In concluding I will again say 1)others take Matthew 24 as fulfilled, yet still recognize a future coming of the Lord, and 2)unless full preterism contends all things were completed by the year AD41 (which they don't) then they themselves have a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks that they deny.

[afp1996]

I am ready with my closing statements.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by afp1996

I am ready with my closing statements.

Ok, let's wait for Jason. He may just post it or say he is ready too. Either way I like the idea of both posting concluding remarks without first reading the others and them posting a counter reply.

These should pretty much be prepared statements of your summary arguments and everything you wanted to add or point out or whatever or even replies to the question answers. This is a little different from closing remarks in a court where the last person gets to comment on the previous closing arguments